Lighting KaM Editor vs KaM Remake

[Lewin]

Not too long ago both GreatWhiteBear and Tom (T*AnTi-V!RuZz) said that the lighting in the KaM Editor was wrong and thus it was very hard to make maps, because as soon as you load it in KaM or the Remake the lighting is different and therefore your mountains and hills look bad. I am assuming they both had the latest version 0.6d (released Oct 2010)
I put this on the bugs list without really testing it myself (two people reported it so I didn't question it) and today Krom "fixed" it. The KaM Editor used elevation that was 3% different to the Remake, so basically the same. There are of course a few other differences in the render (the Remake handles smooth scrolling, the Editor can't) but overall they're pretty much the same.
Now, the thing is that this 3% difference is VERY subtle and you can only see it in a few places, so I don't think it's the bug that people were reporting. I created 4 comparison screenshots to show you: (open them all in tabs then switch between them to get an instant comparison)
KaM Editor 0.6d
KaM Editor 0.6e (development version, yet unreleased)
KaM Remake brightness = 0 (KaM Editor uses no brightness overlay - hence also 0)
KaM Remake brightness = 5
KaM TPR Brightness Minimum

So you can see the 3% difference in height, but it's REALLY not enough to bother you in my opinion. I don't see how the differences in these screenshots would effect your ability to make a map.

The KaM Editor does not use a brightness overlay after rendering so comparing it to the last screenshot is kind of pointless. I just put them one there too in case that is the difference that has been complained about.

If anyone has had this problem can you please explain it or correct me. If possible make your own screenshots (make sure you state which version of the KaM Editor you used) Preferably make one of the KaM Editor, one of the KaM Remake, and one of KaM TPR or TSK.
Cheers,
Lewin.
P.S. Krom also fixed the bug that made you unable to edit the height of the bottom row of the map, causing an ugly cliff on maps like Bannockburn.

[The Dark Lord]

It may indeed look like a minor difference, and especially when we're talking about mountains I have to agree with you. But look at the snow at the top! In the Remake it looks almost completely flat, while in 0.6e it looks elevated at some points. The mountains are not the main problem for me, it's everything around them.
I might make some screenshots tomorrow.

[Krom]

The difference in lighting might be caused by the interpolation and the palleted nature of KaM. Here's how it affects the KaM, Editor and the Remake:

- When you have a palleted graphics (256 colors) you are limited in number of lighting steps you can show. For example imagine you can represent only 20 lighting steps. I.e 1% slope difference won't be lit any differently from 3% slope because they are both below the first lighting step change which is at say 5%, and once 5% is reached it will remain lit the same until next step - 10%. You get the idea. Palettes make smooth changes impossible.

- With floating-point interpolation occurs much smoother, each single change in brightness may be much more subtle 0.1%, so the colors are interpolated smoothly.

Now the example, say you have 4% slope and 6% slope as in said example. In paletted display the difference will be the same as between 0% and 9% - as these values are using same steps as 4 and 6. While in floating-point display the difference will be precise 2% and it won't be as much noticeable as in palette.

Where is leads us to: lighting in Editor and Remake can't match good old KaM without special worsening (that should add artificial steps on to gradients). On the other hand Editor and Remake are different too, because Editor tries to mimic KaM better and uses fixed-point -16..16 lighting steps, which are interpolated. It is like a compromise between paletted and floating-point gradients that Remake uses (which are -1.0 .. 1.0).

Hence all the differences.

Where that leaves us: We can't tweak KaM. I can tweak Editor to certain extent (already did), we could try to tweak Remake to add intentional worsening to gradients, but they won't look like KaM anyway, due to nature of paletted graphics, where colors are handpicked. Although we could tweak shading a little to add more shadows to near-flat areas What do you say?

[Lewin]

Great explanation Krom!
I made a comparison screenshot in KaM TPR, you can see it in the first post. It seems that KaM creates a different "bump" surface to us which the tiles are drawn on. (sorry I don't know the technical terms!) Everything also seems a bit flatter and the shadows/lighting look a lot worse due to the limited colour pallete.

My option: I don't think we should try to reproduce KaM down to the last pixel, we should just try to make something that looks "nice" and like KaM. I think our shaded areas look great compared to KaM because we have full RGB. What we have looks very nice in my opinion.
However, I think we should slightly increase the amount of shading/lighting on near-flat areas as you suggested. I also think we should keep using floating point lighting, it gives a better effect in my opinion (except on near-flat areas) as there are more shades of lighting available.