Current Market Trades

[Ben]

"Oh no!" You are all likely thinking, "Now another market topic!" But don't worry, this won't be bad, I promise In fact, I'm not here to complain, but rather to share about how I feel with the current market trades.

At the moment, I think that the marketplace is better than it ever has been. The wooden trades are not as imbalanced as people originally thought that they would be. The wooden weapons are just too important for troops in the lategame, and it enables players to overpower campers as the aggressor expands his economy. More on this later.

Currently, however, I am missing some market trades. Trades that I miss about the marketplace are:

1 sausage -> 1 timber. Now it is 2 sausage -> 1 timber; which is worthless. It was never possible to ignore wood with this trade, but it did give players the option of going for iron a little faster, at the cost of a bunch of food. In addition, building the marketplace cost both time and five timber, so it was clearly not abuse. It wasn't a very popular strategy, but it was possible to use.

and

1 iron weapon -> 2 gold. Now it is 1 iron weapon -> 1 gold; again worthless. This strategy wasn't really explored, but Pizza was trying it before. I wanted to give this strategy a try on a location that had excellent iron but bad gold. I thought that maybe I could postpone my gold production a little. I don't think that this could possible be abuse so I'd like to see it tested.

I have only one trade that I am currently concerned about 1 wooden shield -> 1 ore (coal, gold or iron) So far, I haven't seen this as abused. I do like how it enables players to continue using coal after the natural resource is depleted, but it might be just too easy with this crazy cheap trade. I think that since the armory workshop is the last building in the long leather process is why this isn't abusable for iron-only strategies.

There are also two trades that I am interested in seeing tested:

1 wooden shield -> 1 corn. This seems interesting. If a player decides to only make one farm and go for more wood, they may be able to make a lot of corn like this. It seems quite difficult, but I'd like to see if it was possible.

1 sausage -> 1 corn. Food trades were very abusable in the Shield Patch. Now, however, the only food trade worth noting about seems to be this one. Trading ten or so sausage for some corn could help get an early boost on leather production. The sausage is also almost returned for full value after being processed (four sausage -> four corn -> one pig -> three sausage (and 1 skin -> 2 leather))


Anyway, those are my thoughts on the current market rates. Lemme know what you think!

Please note: anyone whose name is "The Dark Lord" is not allowed to share their thoughts here. Thank you.

[Krom]

I'll just leave it here: http://www.kamremake.com/devblog/how-do ... are-right/

[Esthlos]

I have only one trade that I am currently concerned about 1 wooden shield -> 1 ore (coal, gold or iron) So far, I haven't seen this as abused. I do like how it enables players to continue using coal after the natural resource is depleted, but it might be just too easy with this crazy cheap trade. I think that since the armory workshop is the last building in the long leather process is why this isn't abusable for iron-only strategies.

I've tested it... if I recall correctly, given enough wood one workshop produces a little more shields than a mine produces ore, but the process requires way more space, buildings and serfs... in my opinion, it is worth it mostly lategame, and only if you run out of ore.
Leather can be exchanged with ore too, meaning you may theorically convert your full wood equipment production into Iron troops.

There are also two trades that I am interested in seeing tested:

1 wooden shield -> 1 corn. This seems interesting. If a player decides to only make one farm and go for more wood, they may be able to make a lot of corn like this. It seems quite difficult, but I'd like to see if it was possible.

Tested it; given enough wood, in 2 hours the shields->corn trade produced 173 corn, while a single farm with a 4x4 field produced 136 corn.
I don't know if this is balanced, since while it's true that the trade produced 27% more corn, it is also true it needs may more space and serfs...

1 sausage -> 1 corn. Food trades were very abusable in the Shield Patch. Now, however, the only food trade worth noting about seems to be this one. Trading ten or so sausage for some corn could help get an early boost on leather production. The sausage is also almost returned for full value after being processed (four sausage -> four corn -> one pig -> three sausage (and 1 skin -> 2 leather))

In my opinion it could be worth it, provided you have another early food source... if I'm not wrong sausages production is slow to start up, and while the energy they restore is high in my opinion their sheer number is too low to use them to both boost your production and feed your village...

[Bence791]

On nearly all maps, sausage --> corn works well, and sausage production isn't slow either. I can usually get at least 1-2 slaughtered pigs in 28 minutes (if not faster), without any sort of corn boost. I don't use it though.

[Ben]

I'll just leave it here: http://www.kamremake.com/devblog/how-do ... are-right/

I've already read that article, Krom, and it lacks one thing that you already mentioned: It doesn't always apply to real situations. Some trades, Like 1 sausage -> 1 timber can't be abused unless the mapmaker gives too much sausage at start. You gave tree-trunks an extra value boost because the formula doesn't work correctly for them. Well it is the same thing here: math doesn't always give you the right answer

I have only one trade that I am currently concerned about 1 wooden shield -> 1 ore (coal, gold or iron) So far, I haven't seen this as abused. I do like how it enables players to continue using coal after the natural resource is depleted, but it might be just too easy with this crazy cheap trade. I think that since the armory workshop is the last building in the long leather process is why this isn't abusable for iron-only strategies.

I've tested it... if I recall correctly, given enough wood one workshop produces a little more shields than a mine produces ore, but the process requires way more space, buildings and serfs... in my opinion, it is worth it mostly lategame, and only if you run out of ore.
Leather can be exchanged with ore too, meaning you may theorically convert your full wood equipment production into Iron troops.

You did this how? With a lab map? The amount of iron ore you can get is not only limited by how quick your mines are working, but also how many mines are possible. In addition, sometimes iron ore is very far away from your base (Border rivers, for example). This applies to coal and (not so much) gold as well.

Tested it; given enough wood, in 2 hours the shields->corn trade produced 173 corn, while a single farm with a 4x4 field produced 136 corn.
I don't know if this is balanced, since while it's true that the trade produced 27% more corn, it is also true it needs may more space and serfs...

If you tested this in a lab map then all I can do say is, "seriously?" This isn't about surpassing farms, it is about avoiding farms to save time.

1 sausage -> 1 corn. Food trades were very abusable in the Shield Patch. Now, however, the only food trade worth noting about seems to be this one. Trading ten or so sausage for some corn could help get an early boost on leather production. The sausage is also almost returned for full value after being processed (four sausage -> four corn -> one pig -> three sausage (and 1 skin -> 2 leather))

In my opinion it could be worth it, provided you have another early food source... if I'm not wrong sausages production is slow to start up, and while the energy they restore is high in my opinion their sheer number is too low to use them to both boost your production and feed your village...[/quote]
Sausage production isn't really slow to start. You can have pigs slaughtered in less than 25 minutes. This trades is meant to get that production started even faster, with of course the leather boost.

[Esthlos]

I've tested it... if I recall correctly, given enough wood one workshop produces a little more shields than a mine produces ore, but the process requires way more space, buildings and serfs... in my opinion, it is worth it mostly lategame, and only if you run out of ore.
Leather can be exchanged with ore too, meaning you may theorically convert your full wood equipment production into Iron troops.

You did this how? With a lab map?

Did this in a lab map, with the mine right next to the storehouse and the inn. Did this with all the mines.
(With every building in the remake, actually)
(Wanted to check the "optimal production proportions"... should still have the file with the results, if you are interested).

The amount of iron ore you can get is not only limited by how quick your mines are working, but also how many mines are possible. In addition, sometimes iron ore is very far away from your base (Border rivers, for example). This applies to coal and (not so much) gold as well.

I know, that's why I wrote "in my opinion, it is worth it mostly lategame, and only if you run out of ore."... the space and buildings required and "startup times" are too different to make the trade preferable over building mines, when you can build mines.

Tested it; given enough wood, in 2 hours the shields->corn trade produced 173 corn, while a single farm with a 4x4 field produced 136 corn.
I don't know if this is balanced, since while it's true that the trade produced 27% more corn, it is also true it needs may more space and serfs...

If you tested this in a lab map then all I can do say is, "seriously?" This isn't about surpassing farms, it is about avoiding farms to save time.

Lab map, it should definitely let you both outperform farms and save time in a "real" situation. Provided you can have enough wood, that is...

In my opinion it could be worth it, provided you have another early food source... if I'm not wrong sausages production is slow to start up, and while the energy they restore is high in my opinion their sheer number is too low to use them to both boost your production and feed your village...

Sausage production isn't really slow to start. You can have pigs slaughtered in less than 25 minutes. This trades is meant to get that production started even faster, with of course the leather boost.

Do you mean by trading the sausages you already had at start? It may work. Not sure about still being able to feed a town while doing this, but in my opinion you can definitely try it.

[Bence791]

Do you mean by trading the sausages you already had at start? It may work. Not sure about still being able to feed a town while doing this, but in my opinion you can definitely try it.

Exactly. Take a look at the "Review Your Game Play" topic, I have posted a replay there. See if it works or not :p

Of course you will be able to feed your town. Let me calculate a bit:
You are given 40 sausages at start. You manage to finish your first farm in 9 minutes, then you rush for an early market (or earlier than the farm, you decide) and an early pigfarm. You trade all your sausages to corn, you get 40 corn in return which is enough to slaughter 10 pigs. 10 pigs = 30 sausages + 20 tanned leather (you lose 25% of your sausages, but get +20 tanned leather for this process). This is what my (and Ben and Gentor's as well) build exploits on The Cracked Land. There you are given 75 sausages at start, I traded ~70 of them for corn (5 were delivered to my inn or so) so I had a great boost to leather. You can calculate, if you want :p Look at the replay to see it working, though.

[The Dark Lord]

1 sausage -> 1 timber. Now it is 2 sausage -> 1 timber; which is worthless. It was never possible to ignore wood with this trade, but it did give players the option of going for iron a little faster, at the cost of a bunch of food.

I'm not sure if we would want to see rush strategies even better...

1 wooden shield -> 1 corn. This seems interesting. If a player decides to only make one farm and go for more wood, they may be able to make a lot of corn like this. It seems quite difficult, but I'd like to see if it was possible.

That sounds actually quite abusable.

Please note: anyone whose name is "The Dark Lord" is not allowed to share their thoughts here. Thank you.

I'm afraid I am about to neglect your warning.

Let me say a few words. Probably a few... unexpected words.

Last couple of games I have been using the marketplace, even before peacetime. Yes, this is no typo. Since I'm just plain bad at rushing for sword fighters AND have a nice leather army (I mostly lack wooden weapons), I decided to go for loads of wooden weapons, a reasonable amount of leather and few iron weapons. With this tactic I get over 100 units. Now that sounds good, but with a lot of militia among them it is not as strong. However, my food is okay after pt and I can spam a lot of units, whereas in the past I had food problems and therefore I couldn't train much units (hungry weapon makers, etc.). The market makes this tactic stronger in 2 aspects:
- I can trade a couple of horses (wooden weapons/shields --> horses) without wasting corn. This means my corn will be spent on pigs or flour, which means my food production and leather production will remain stable. These horses (knights) can make my army much scarier, as I now have the power to flank opposing archers. And if the enemy can't use his archers, my overwhelming numbers will slaughter him.
- IF I have food trouble around or after pt, I easily trade some weapons for sausages, and that solves the problem almost immediately.
This can NEVER be achieved without the marketplace. If I would try, I would need more farms and stables for horses, and I would need more farms for food. There is just not enough time to build all that AND have a huge army + no starvations + high weapon production at/after pt.

For everyone who is now wondering what disease settled in my brain: I'm not sure if I'll stick with this strategy, since I still do not and never will like the marketplace. I haven't been able to use this strategy against skilled players yet, so it remains to be seen if it is any good. But in theory (my theory), it should be okay.

In addition, sometimes iron ore is very far away from your base (Border rivers, for example). This applies to coal and (not so much) gold as well.

gg

[pawel95]

I haven't been able to use this strategy against skilled players yet, so it remains to be seen if it is any good. But in theory (my theory), it should be okay.

Good luck with it At 3vs3/4vs4 games which don´t end 10 min after PT your strategy could work somehow

[Ben]

Actually, I'm finding that 2v2 games are lasting longer than 4v4 In 4v4, you are more likely to have messed up in player balance and you are also more likely to have someone that screws up.

[Ben]

I am going to decide that sausage -> corn doesn't work. At least for a market-noob like me.

annnnndd there goes my last idea for market-rushing

[Smogon]

I am going to decide that sausage -> corn doesn't work. At least for a market-noob like me.

annnnndd there goes my last idea for market-rushing

The idea was nice though, but maybe location 8 is not made for it?

[dicsoupcan]

that is a nice analysis ben, but i think you forgot one heck of a powerfull lategame trade. leather (not the jackets) for gold chests which is 1:1. if you have enough swinefarms running to overproduce leather you can basically skip your gold production and save more coal for your iron. but on the other hand 1 leather is also 1 coal/ore just as 1 skin is 2 coal/ore. with 5 swinefarms working you can actually keep your gold and iron running into infinity.

[The Dark Lord]

Nah come on, wooden weapons --> gold chests is much easier...

[dicsoupcan]

it depends onhow your town is made, if you make loads of leather anyway why not?