Diagonal roads

[Siegfried]

yes i think this is right in kam there are only left to right and right to left and no diagonal think!

All units and troops can stand and walk diagonal. Each unit has animations for diagonal movement. Units can come out of buildings diagonally and the woodcutter and fisherman works diagonally.

No, everything in KaM is designed to be in 8 directions (4 straight and 4 diagonals), all movement and all animations. Only the roads lack a diagonal theme, that's why we still discuss.

[Lewin]

cost is much higher, to get 14 tiles away you need 20 stone instead of 10 (where's 10 is more fair price)

I don't think that's a good argument, because 14 is only slightly closer to 10 than 20. 10 is a lot less than the road SHOULD cost you so I could very well use the reverse argument. It's only a difference of 1 stone between it being equal...

3 issues:
- trees, they could be removed if surrounded by roads - no big deal;

I think that's a pretty big deal.

I think that's a calamity.

I edited my mockup to demonstrate the problems Krom mentioned:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/diag3.gif

I've also shown the way corners will look under this scheme, labeled 1 and 2. It shows the plans and what it would look like after construction.

I am still opposed to this change because I think it won't look nice (I hate the way corners look, and I can tell that everyone will use the one labelled 2 to save a few stones...) And more importantly, I don't think there is a satisfactory solution to the tree and field problems.
I am strongly opposed to make trees disappear when you build a road near them. I LOVE having trees in the middle of my village surrounded by roads, it looks nice!:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/treeroad.gif
If all of those trees were removed just because there's some road near them I would be very sad. Also, digging up a LIVING tree with a spade seems quite difficult to me...

Why? Trees are removed if grapes are placed near them. I think it would make more sense anyway. How often do you see a full grown tree growing out of a road? That would have to be a pretty big crack

I don't see the problem with this, the trees would provide shade and make the village nice to live in. You just pave the road around the tree, and because they're on the corners, they don't get in your way unless you want to have a diagonal road. We have trees growing out of footpaths in Australia, I took this photo at uni today to show you:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/treeroad2.jpg
The fact that grapes remove trees is unintentional and could be fixed later on. If you want to chop them down, use a woodcutter and turn planting off. (new feature)

[The Dark Lord]

No, everything in KaM is designed to be in 8 directions (4 straight and 4 diagonals), all movement and all animations. Only the roads lack a diagonal theme, that's why we still discuss.

Wrong. Only units are designed to be in 8 directions.

I edited my mockup to demonstrate the problems Krom mentioned:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/diag3.gif

That's absolutely horrible. We can't let this happen to KaM.

The fact that grapes remove trees is unintentional and could be fixed later on. If you want to chop them down, use a woodcutter and turn planting off. (new feature)

Hm... I think it's fine that grapes can remove trees. I've never seen grape fields with trees in the middle of it. And if you are willing to pay 4 timber (yes, it should be 4 and not 1 because I don't see why the tree would disappear if you don't build all around it) for it then that's fine with me.

[Lewin]

Well things that move work fine in 8 directions, but stationary things like buildings and roads and fields aren't so flexible. You can't place houses on 45 degrees to line up with diagonal roads. Fields are squares that only connect with other fields on 4 edges. If we make roads connect on all 8 edges, should we make fields connect too? What if I want a diagonal row of fields but they look ugly? Just kidding, but the point is that not everything was made to work in 8 directions, roads included. The sprites exist for roads in 4 directions, but not 8.

[Krom]

@Lewin: Thanks for excellent preview of diagonal roads issues. I will still keep my opinion, but for Remake - agree on "wide" diagonal roads.

P.S. I have deleted most of the off-topic posts :roll:

[Danjb]

Admirable work, Lewin.

[Ben]

I don't see the problem with this, the trees would provide shade and make the village nice to live in. You just pave the road around the tree, and because they're on the corners, they don't get in your way unless you want to have a diagonal road.

I wont see a problem there because of the inconstancy. If the grape exploit was removed, than I would be content.

We have trees growing out of footpaths in Australia, I took this photo at uni today to show you:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/treeroad2.jpg
The fact that grapes remove trees is unintentional and could be fixed later on. If you want to chop them down, use a woodcutter and turn planting off. (new feature)

I KNEW Someone was going to mention this! What I didn't expect was to have someone upload a photo.
Anyway you brought up an excellent point, but in my opinion, i don't like the trees in the road. I like them between my roads.

I edited my mockup to demonstrate the problems Krom mentioned:
http://lewin.hodgman.id.au/kam/linked/diag3.gif

That's absolutely horrible. We can't let this happen to KaM.

Agreed. I still stand with "Only weaving roads allowed"

[Shadaoe]

Trees in a raod, can also end like that :

And it's only a little thing, in my city some places are compeltely destroyed by roots :p

[Lewin]

Split the off topic discussion.
I thought I'd split it rather than remove them so everyone can take it as an example of how this forum should NOT be used. If we just keep deleting stuff then few people will see what you wrote.

Don't make me start issuing warnings guys.

[Ben]

Tehe, now who was the first to go off topic, Mr. Lewin
-------------------------

Have we come to a conclusion on this; though? I see that the pool is mostly leaning towards one way, but is that what your plan is?

[Lewin]

Tehe, now who was the first to go off topic, Mr. Lewin
-------------------------

Have we come to a conclusion on this; though? I see that the pool is mostly leaning towards one way, but is that what your plan is?

When are you saying I went off topic? My image of the tree growing in the footpath was on topic because someone said it would be fine to remove trees surrounded by road because trees can't grow when surrounded by road. I think in a medieval village it's quite realistic for them to pave around a tree rather than digging it out, because remove trees would have been a lot of work when you consider that trees bring benefits like shade. So my point was that I think trees surrounded by roads fit in KaM.
But I didn't talk about where I live or the colour of the foliage in my area or the other things that were in the off topic discussion.

Well Krom said above that we'll use the wide (or weaving) road for the Remake, but he'll keep his opinion that it should only require the width 1 road. So I think the next demo will not work with the ugly roads and require you to build the weaving roads.

[Ben]

When are you saying I went off topic? My image of the tree growing in the footpath was on topic because someone said it would be fine to remove trees surrounded by road because trees can't grow when surrounded by road. I think in a medieval village it's quite realistic for them to pave around a tree rather than digging it out, because remove trees would have been a lot of work when you consider that trees bring benefits like shade. So my point was that I think trees surrounded by roads fit in KaM.
But I didn't talk about where I live or the colour of the foliage in my area or the other things that were in the off topic discussion.

Ahh, this makes sense now. I missed those random posts. They must have been deleted?
Anyway I didn't think what you were saying was off topic, but from all I knew, it seemed like you said it was. Sorry about that.

Well Krom said above that we'll use the wide (or weaving) road for the Remake, but he'll keep his opinion that it should only require the width 1 road. So I think the next demo will not work with the ugly roads and require you to build the weaving roads.

Yay! Now I don't need to be worried about being overrun if I try to make a nice town.

[Lewin]

I understand, it's quite confusing when things are deleted or split. When I wrote that I had deleted about 4 posts and split about 5 to a new topic.
Well it looks like this discussion is at an end for now.

[Yeti]

I fully approve of this aesthetically pleasing action. Years ago when I first got the game my father played it too, and it was he who discovered the benefit to be had in diagonal roads. Even in levels where the enemy attacked fast I could never bring myself to follow his example; it just looked too repulsive! Therefore I'm glad to know online players will not be getting this advantage.