Iron mines/ore VS ARMY composition

[thunder]

Hello!
Well, I don't remember when I've opened topic but now would like to share this.
Yesterday we had a game on Desert mind on 60*1*1. I didn't count we will play that map, but why not, something different then the usual maps. I've played it only twice but of course 'you have an advantege because you are the creator of it'...etc. Actually we lost after autosave. But I got a strange feeleing. Actually a very strange one. Today when I was travelling to office I had time to thinking what happened in the game. I had to watched back the replay twice to understand what I got from this game. I tried to explain it for myseéf but needed a little time to understand why was speciel that game for me. Maybe the gameplay wasn't perfect but I noticed smething what woke me up.

This game gave me back something from the origina TSK games, from the single mode. What gave me is REGARDING POWER OF THE IRONTROOPS. I remember I felt always the irontroops are something speciel bonus for the game for the missions. Those were rarely and just some missions had it.(maybe I'm not correct-but really ~15years) I loved specielly mass pikes.

Anyway we have interesting army compositions after PT. Compositions! Yes. MASS scouts(actully 13 ) and mass lances with Xbows. We can ask it, why? MAybe some of you will say because he and he and they are nUbs or still even don't know the game, it is the worst armycomposition ever. they played for fun, trolled etc... NO. I played with the actualy best players. Actually I have deeper thoughs about the reason.
I think we can say that units are balanced well. The rock paper scissors is working well, of course some of you are missing xbow's shut and halt etc...but the units and their balance seems quite okay now. Knights beat swords, swords beat pikes and the pikes beat knights. Okay, then what the problem is really if there is a perfect unit balance? My idea is the problem is the very cheap and overproduceable ironore. I had some thoughts about the mapmakers who are blaming the whole Remake with infinity ironmines etc, but I'm one of them so I'm sure it not true, but there is a half point.

Actually we can say that the strongest army composition at the moment is Knights+swords+bowman. Usualy most of the players are plaing this in normal 60PTmode. Just set the village and after autotraining and focus on the battle field. It is natural and where the prolmem is? The problem starts when the irontroops are dominating the whole game. It is happening. 30swords+10knights+40bows one big fight and GG after 70mins. When playing daily then know your enemies much better day by day and make some pikes and lances also, but those never be like a main army if there aren't trolls I would like to say there are less interesting strategies then were in market era. Okay we all know this also.

Actually the irontroops are more OP then the leather troops. It's right. But there are too much irontroops. Of course because everybody focusing to traing the best army, but unfortunately the leather troops don't get enough chance to step into game. Okay the leather troops will be good in the late game. But as I remember the dream was the classical mixed army creation at PT. This is why the market was modified to be good at lategames.

I really enjoyed the game, seemed to me the players are surprised to see these army compositions. I was also but realized it only after the game. But why mass scouts and mass lances?? Well, 1st only two ironmines were there. It gives less iron ore then 3 or more. So if somebody really would like to abusing the iron troops then need to make very early mines(each one) or need to trade the leather wares to ironore or coal etc...
2nd the locs have only 150 iron ore/hill. It makes the player to let count what want to make exactly. 150 iron ore->150 ironbar->75xbow/pikes or 50swords. In time the swordman production slower if we count with 1-1 weapony and armory. (yes usually 1weaponry-2armory is the normal way for swordsman production)
So here it is a closed gap 2 mines and only 150ore. Almost doesn't matter what kind of irontroops will make because the players almost sure will abuse leather. The startng PT army will have different leather/iron troops rates.

Lots of usual maps have 3mines with around 3-400 ironore. It is actually enough for almost until the end of game. I know lots of players dislike the empty ironmines, dislike to working on the village under the battles to build new building set trades, but that one is also a skill. Less resources give more chance for the market also.
Many new maps are ther which has less starting resources in the storehouses and in the hills so there are players who like these game modes also.

Shortly because my keyboard's never seen as much charater... My theory is the irontroops quality is much stronger when the players got less from them. Then they feel their power much better then in a big mass. I've cheked some replays and made some piceture about the PT armies but it is not an exact science...
There is picture from the 2; 3; and the 3/4++ version PT armies. Of course it is not relevant but somethings are evident and easy to see.

More iron mines -->more iron troops-->less leather troops //maybe it is not a perfect sentence and there are exceptions.
Less iron mines-->less iron troops--->more leather troops.

My small conclusion is: there should be a golden way where the starting iron troops and leather troops be in a number balance or in power balance at PT.
I think to this is somewhere between 2-3mines with 200-250iron ores.(it is only my opinion.)

At this moment how i see:
4++mines -->OP, mega ironusage, leather game has very low chance to make useful gameplay.
3mines with 300++ironore --> slightly better conditions but still irondominating.
3mines with low amount of ironore2-300 -->similar but presurrizethe early market
2mines -->would be good to see more results, in this case there are different starts also than knights+swords+bow
1mine --> no datas
1mine-FAKE -->I had once on Paradise ISland when trade all leather stuffs to iron. No leather troops and useless iron troops...
0mine -->Maybe on OpenWorld with trading....

I would try out some of these:
-maps where the locations has only 1 iron mine with 300 iron ore.It would be interesting because the players always would have little groups of irontroops, but not in abused form. In this case the market usage would be a good option also when every skin would be trade to ironore and the tree trunks to coal....
-Changing the mining time of the ironmines. multiple with 1,333...I know it s a strange idea...

So these strange thoughs came up to my mind after DesertMind game.

Anyway thanks for that game! For me that was the game of the year!
Oh and here are some pictures about the stats...Maybe someone has more monoton/balanced results where every player do the same army...

t


PS: SCOUTS and mass pikes nothing else! trolololo
PS:PS: its not about the maps nd balancing the maps/locs...It is all about abusing iron and about the army composition...and of course there are still lots of technical question, but no more type today

[LadyPauline]

Okay, then what the problem is really if there is a perfect unit balance? My idea is the problem is the very cheap and overproduceable ironore.

Well there is some truth in what you saying, Thunder, we can see more iron troops than leather Sometimes, its in most cases 50/50%. Just most of leather going to bows, amount of leather after 60 pt is basically low when we want have iron troops also. But, as we all know there are many ways to get more leather in 60 minutes,
The Bow Challenge proves it. There are also maps with 2 irons only, one even popular (Ravine?) However, for most of players in our 60pt crew, making iron troops is safe and balanced. I mean when we have 30 swords core, against enemy 30 swords we feel its somehow safe, we can clash them and give some support with arrows but when the numbers are equal, then our skill decide who can win
Otherwise, with leather core (axes, lances) + some iron troops, sometimes i cant just imagine what can really happen, I just don't feel the power of those troops, i can count on high numbers, but you know when i know the situation when 10 pikes kill big regiment like 20+ axe fighters (its not a big chance but it happens)then i have some doubts... I need to feel safe.
We know the randomness in this game, we can load the same kind of fight many times and we can have different final results. You know its like taking the barbarians vs knights. In my opinion Barbarians are better killers than Knights, not only the pikes. They slay everything in this game like crazy, when there are no bows to kill em, then battle is very imba, once they just kill everything, and other time they die bcs they have low armor. This unit is very unbalanced and bless the maker its not playable in remake eco maps.
So to my point, when i see many leather troops i feel kind of similar to barbarian vs all situation. I have NO IDEA about the result. In typical iron core + leather support its way easier to control the situation, imagine the fray, what can heppen Really. I hope you know what i want to show you.
Obviously, we often play other kinds of builds, other troops etc, but in most cases its stabile Iron Wall, Horde of pikes or nice regiment of swords, sometimes Imba xbows. Its all predictable. Its comfortable for us to know our strength.
Thunder You want make this game like its Real Medieval world where steel is only for rich man, and only 10% have cash for a fine plate? Its interesting and realistic and thats why we have storyline in campaign, but pvp its not as playable as good iron system production.
Changing this system is only creation of other problems, its my opinion, let me know what you think about it.

Cheers!

[thunder]

its in most cases 50/50%

It's true if we think on the usual 30+30 sword+bow combo. And as I tried to tell it is the most popular start after PT because it is the stronges start or combo now.
But 30 swords vs 30bows?? For me the 15swords +15axefighters+30bows would be much various start at pt. (and the 15swords because of harder iron production)

This 50-50% still goes for irondomination. I feel this would be good like 30-70%. Then all kind of leather troops would have chance beat that 30% iron.

Sword+bows? Why? because 1-2 stables give the strongest avaiable unit in pvp mode, the knights. But this combo kill other strategies. Like Xbows+leather, Scout strategies.
If reducing the starting iron troops then the player will need more leather meele. More leather meele ->less bows maybe more xbows and not just for fun. More xbows less swordsman->less knights and maybe more scouts?
Less swordsman will be on the field but numbers of the knights maybe will stay as in the originaly but with less swords man. Basicly the stables are just plus one reason to goes to produce swordsman because of knights.

Of course there are attempts to make other army combos but we can agree those are not working as good in every case as the Sword+bow combo. Playing these normaly only for fun. This needs + 2 more ironbuilding and +2-3coalmines. So economicaly is a bit harder also then going only for swords.
10knights-20swordsman+30bows vs 30pikes+15xbows+30bows? Of course lots of things depend of the situation etc. but normally the knights give huge advantage to kill bows behind the pikes. But it is different question I just try to explain this is still mostly about the irontroops.

I totally agree to abusing any speciel units is possible. only xbows, only pikes,maybe a mix of these but I still feel that the ironproduction is dominating the early games and the whole game is build around it.

You want make this game like its Real Medieval world where steel is only for rich man,

Unfortunately I don't know that game I just would like to see the dreamt various armys at PT. This was one of the reasons to kill the old market. And as I see the solution is somewhere at the low /slow/expensive iron ore production. I don't want to kill the iron troops. just would like to see different rates than 50-50%.
And would be good to see the irontroops get a bit more elite status than mass production quality...

Personaly I think to if the players would have less quality iron troops then they would care much better about their positions etc...
Now usually see 2 big brick of swords and press attack and wait until one brick is dead in the fight. If the player would have 10 swords then would think more to attack 20-25axefighters or not. I just would like to explain if the leather would get more early game power then would be more colourful starts are there.

Anyway the game changed lot under the past releases. Now it is absolute normal to rush ironmines without any penality, but there were releases when the early iron rush was the riskiest thing ever. That time iron mines opened after 35-40minutes now if somebody goes for late iron mines then almost guarantee will have huge disadvantage at PT. :S
r6720 has power farms and woodcutters so nowadays very easy to encounter the leather troops with the early ironproduction.

Of course players like to see as much strongest units as possible at PT, this was the reason also to make maps where ironmines are near to storehouse, there are almost infinity ironore in the hill etc... (for example Boarder River8P's ironmine distances are one of the longests still TFF has leather only locs where still able to make mass iron army, on an only leather loc )
So yes, I think to it would need a little balance. Lower/slower production times and higher market values to ironore. But for this need lots learning/studying
Leather would have more chance for early games at 30-70%.

one even popular (Ravine?)

I still can count on one hand how many times played on any Ravine maps.

[Ben]

I agree. Iron is too plentiful for standard strategies. It would be nice to see more 2 iron mine maps.

[Killer!!]

+1 for Ben and Thunder!
Game would be much more interesting if iron would be a special addition to your army and not the main part of it.

[TheRagingBullet]

How is spamming farms and everyone having a 'paper army' more fun then going for a ton of iron and having to actually manage your food (cause when you spam farms you get a ton of food anyway) and making sure your iron production keeps running after peacetime. the game will be a lot more boring if you ask me

[Esthlos]

+1 for Ben and Thunder!
Game would be much more interesting if iron would be a special addition to your army and not the main part of it.

I agree too... it would also, by the way, solve every pet peeve (already exposed in other threads) I have about the game's balance.

How is spamming farms and everyone having a 'paper army' more fun then going for a ton of iron and having to actually manage your food (cause when you spam farms you get a ton of food anyway) and making sure your iron production keeps running after peacetime. the game will be a lot more boring if you ask me

It would make iron troops much less disposable, which in turn would justify their power compared to Leather troops.

It would, for example, make you actually consider training Crossbowmen instead of Sword Fighters, because the former are safer and losing the latter would hurt much more than usual.