Speeding up the early game

[thunder]

Hi!

Because 4mins? If any maps need some faster develop, then quarry, stoemason, farm...etc...are opened.
anyway the early inn is 'necesarry', because serfs need to eat every 12min...Nowadays if dont need to build inn after school(s) than thats build up after 17min...or forget it the player...
There is some classical maps what is really good with this buildingway. Anyway opened building just interfere the new players, and give some new mistake point.(Still better players make this kind of mistakes...Build first woodcutter or any opened building and after school....)

Pro and cons. Sometimes really good if you can build your inns far from the store because arent enough place or just will be further the food productio..etc...(loc4 BitD-okay not classical buildingway here), delete the classical way from the Remake? :S i think it will be miss from some classical maps...(The playest maps Cursed Ravine, GoldenCLiffs ...are working fine with classic way...)

Possible is it the golden way?
I think this building way should be implement it the Lobby.The host can Choose map and choose playstyle. 'Classical way' or 'without Inn way'.
it could be good for everybody. to the oldschool players,to the oldschool maps, and to the new generation players, and new styles...

[Krom]

Lets see, at the start you have one Store, some serfs and some workers. What do you do, you build a School .. takes few minutes, what do you do while its in progress? If you are a beginner, you wander around, look at builders making a road, digging a field, serfs .. nothing spectacular. Then Inn, then Quarry. Thats a dull process till you get to a point where you can start actually playing by making important decisions. If you are an expert you start management already, pre-building roads to quarries and woodcutters.

For novices the change allows to plan/build more at once, making a game not so boring. Also it allows to make a mistake of early Inn, that will distract serfs and workers from other building activities So that players can notice early, that building School first allows to hire more workers and expand faster.

For experts that allows to build quicker and don't waste time on watching how slow workers build the Inn they don't need at mission start.

@Thunder: Units need to eat every ~40-45min. If your units eat every 12min that is a hint that you doing something wrong (only wine?).
Anyway, unlocking houses does not affects in any way how you can plan your town. Or did you meant something else?

[thunder]

I didn't say to i dont agree with this style or it is bad, just sometimes good to play on the classical way too. So this is why i told it could be a good option if it will be a choosable option on the every map or in the lobby.
Anyway i liked the first 18-20 mins because until i know what am i doing...XD after i cant planning more

Okay now i understand times of food, thanks. But still need the inns nearly 17-20mins, because starting and trained citizens rarely 100% feeded.

[Ben]

Okay, after a long break the plan is as follows:

Store unlocks Inn and School
Inn unlocks nothing
School unlocks Quarry and Woodcutters
Quarry unlocks Tower
Woodcutters unlock Sawmill
after that everything is unchanged and works as before

I was going to complain, but now I like this idea. The way I see it, the Inn really shouldn't unlock anything (except maybe the fisherman's hut like it did in unpatched TPR ).

[Krom]

@Thunder: You can build in classical way if you like, just like so: Store>School>Inn>Quarry>Woodcutters>Sawmill>etc.. I don't understand how unlocking houses forbids you to build in classical way

[The Dark Lord]

Well it's not about what you can and what you can't do, it's about what you need to do. Nobody is ever going to build an inn after the school when the quarry and woodcutter are unlocked. Not in normal gameplay, but certainly not in competitive gameplay.
I'm not sure but I think most players spend their time on planning their city and thinking about their strategy, maybe some chat with other players. It's up to you how to spend your time, but for me the 'waiting time' (seriously, there's more than enough to do!) is not a good excuse to change the building order. Please reconsider this change.

[Da Revolution]

I agree with the Dark Lord, you got no other option than skipping the inn till 15-17 mins. Otherwise you'll just lag too much behind.

[Krom]

Strategy games are about making decisions that are not immediately affect something, but are going to bite you in the back some time later. There are plethora mistakes to make in KaM. Missing an Inn is going to bite you in the middle of peacetime - means you have time to recover till PT ends. There's one more consideration: it is common practice to build an Inn and immediately block food delivery to it. Where did that come from and what happens if you forget to re-enable food delivery?

[thunder]

There's one more consideration: it is common practice to build an Inn and immediately block food delivery to it.

Yes it is, but if i see some IDLE serfs i open inn and close immeditely again. If i see again IDLE serfs i open and close again. Early food magement. Nowadays i dont like really the full inn...Not necessary.
Some times i close immediately, and open it after 25 mins so every citizens will eat only 1 or maximum2 things because no more food in the resturante (only in the store). (Sometimes citizens eat three kind of food 100%<....the third food just waste,and other citizens are hungry also)
While foods are in the store i do it more times(close-open-close-open). i try to use low food in the inn, or one type food.
An idea (possible it was somewhere on the forum already). 'Set up' what kind of food come into the Inn/-same the storehouse's wares/. So the players could be separate the foods. For example: One inn has only sousage and one has only vine. One type of food could work fine with small cities.
Possible to give actual values of the food somewhere to the inn, same the prices 'vine 30%'?


PS:
there are many other points where the players can make mistakes and lose times. Example: last time i played effective(i beilive:) ) and my city just broke down in a little traffic jam. village stopped more than 20mins(!) and i have to delete 2 stonmasons also-so my game finished after the 30mins.(i couldnt controll anything.i just watched to how my city dieing)

[Ben]

I see both sides of this argument. In the end, what if we just keep it as it was before, and just let the mapmaker decide if he wants to have the woodcutter and stone mason unlocked at the start? I think that this might be best.

[Oleg]

At first I hated this idea, then I liked it, then I went back to hating it. I am a noob in multiplayer and I already have a hard time doing everything as it is, even with peacetime set to 70 I get destroyed by others because I don't have an army. Now imagine an expert coming into the lobby and building up his city in half the time I do using this. I would get destroyed even faster and worse than before. Please dont implement this

[Krom]

Does anyone knows other RTS games where at mission start there was only one option to build? And only one option after that? And only two after that? And only one after? And only one after? And only then there was multi-choice. I'm not kidding: School>Inn>Quarry>Tower/Woodcutters>Sawmill> ...

What fun is in building same houses in the same pattern all over again .. IMO variety of tactics should be presented earlier in the game. That's why unlocking few more houses early.

@Oleg: What advantage it gives novice against veteran if they locked into one pathway? Novice will waste his time and veteran will do micro-management.
P.S. If you are a novice, then with each additional minute of PT you fallback behind a veteran. While your town produces 2 warriors, veterans town makes 4. I would advice you to aim at shorter PT and try to win with smaller force maneuvering rather than waiting for a big fight where veteran has twice more men that you.

[Ben]

Does anyone knows other RTS games where at mission start there was only one option to build? And only one option after that? And only two after that? And only one after? And only one after? And only then there was multi-choice. I'm not kidding: School>Inn>Quarry>Tower/Woodcutters>Sawmill> ...

I agree! The only thing is that we can still do this anyway if the map-maker chooses to unlock these buildings at the start.... I'm still with you on this one; though

[Jeronimo]

Does anyone knows other RTS games where at mission start there was only one option to build? And only one option after that? And only two after that? And only one after? And only one after? And only then there was multi-choice. I'm not kidding: School>Inn>Quarry>Tower/Woodcutters>Sawmill> ...

I agree! The only thing is that we can still do this anyway if the map-maker chooses to unlock these buildings at the start.... I'm still with you on this one; though

Mapmakers are just doing manually what the game should be in core-design.
That is, faster early development: helps to the game's flow, and to location's balance (few trees, then early woodcutters/market).

KaM itself is already quite "slow paced" in terms of gathering resources and training units one by one.
Save your breath complainers, and obey the right attitude towards improved tech-tree.

[Lewin]

The map makers can still choose to release the quarry/woodcutter at the start, meaning you can build them before the school. So it doesn't take that away, map makers can still choose to make their maps "faster" by unlocking more at the start