Market

[The Dark Lord]

I'm sorry for spamming in this topic once again but I'm wondering about something.
Last few games I catched myself trading gold for sausages. You can trade 2 gold ore for 1 sausage or 1 gold chest for 1 sausage. On some maps there are huge amounts of gold and it is hard to run out of it. Trading sausages is then relatively cheap.
But that was not really what I'm wondering about, that's just one of my billiongazillion complaints about the market.
No, I am wondering why wine also costs 1 gold chest?

Since wine doesn't really feed citizens that much (about 20%? what was it again?) and sausages do (60%? not sure) you would expect to get more wine. I can also see the other side of the story. With 2 or 3 wine you can feed more citizens and completely fill the status bar of soldiers. But really, no one is going to trade for wine if sausages are equally expensive (or, rather, cheap) when trading gold for them. I also understand that you can't make every trade fair (unless you work with really high numbers, like: 8 gold chests for 6 sausages, 8 gold chests for 8 bread, 8 gold chests for 10 wine, etc.), but I do feel that you should get 2 wine for 1 gold chest.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Interesting point..

[GreatWhiteBear]

I discussed with Lewin, and sausages need a different market value.
Pleas have another example.

[The Dark Lord]

What kind of example do you mean?

[caykroyd]

What kind of example do you mean?

You had said:

that's just one of my billiongazillion complaints about the market.

are there more complaints you would like to point out??

[The Dark Lord]

I think I already wrote quite a lot about it, but those posts are likely to be scattered around the forum.

But since you asked for it, here you go!



I read this in the FAQ on kamremake.com:

Q: Why did you remove the siege workshop, catapult and balista?
Two reasons:
1. Siege equipment “magically” drives with nobody pushing or pulling it. In KaM every tiny detail is visible, and yet these machines drive themselves.
2. We don’t think it’s balanced. Balista are basically a one-shot-kill ranged unit, so if you get a lot of them they are overpowered.

I could write exactly the same about the market. Resources are brought inside, and 'something else' comes out. I could consider that magical. I don't think it's balanced either and it is probably very hard, if not impossible, to make it balanced.

The last game I played, EVERYONE used the market to get food. Otherwise we would all have died. KaM has changed; people now go mass iron/coal, produce as many crossbowmen (and often pikemen) as possible and change resources, mostly gold, for food.
In the past you couldn't do that because you would die of starvation. So you now see much bigger armies and pathetic economies. That's very unrealistic if you ask me.

I've seen the argument 'but if you trade everything you will eventually run out of resources and then the other players have the advantage'. But I disagree. You don't need to trade much. If you focus on military first, then trade some food and build food-producing buildings at the same time, you won't need to spend much. Approximately 30 gold chests were enough for me last game (= 30 sausages). That's 15 gold ore and 15 coal ore. It's unlikely such small amounts would ever make the difference. And when your food production is running, you will be expanding towards new resources or make sure you have something to trade for gold ore/coal/iron ore, depending on the situation.

In the past, I was happy to have 10 crossbowmen and some militia in an hour playtime. I know what you're thinking: that's nothing. Indeed, it isn't. Not anymore.

Q: Why did you remove the town hall?
We think it is “cheating” and doesn’t fit the game style. In KaM you have to make a complex economy to produce anything. (e.g. there are 4 processing steps to make leather armour)

Not anymore.

[Lewin]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. What do you think about making the price at the market go higher the more of that resource you trade? (and the resource you are giving becomes cheaper) So after trading 10 gold for 10 sausages, the next 10 gold would only give me 5 sausages or something. and the next 10 would only give me 2-3. I think that's how it works in most other games like Ages of Empires and Stronghold. That would mean you can't just feed one resource into the market, but you can still use it for a short time in emergencies like running out of food while you build other food buildings. The prices could slowly return to normal over time.

I don't think it makes sense for players to feed 200 gold ore into the market for food over 30 minutes, what would the merchants do with all of the gold ore? And where do they get all the sausages from? It makes more sense for the merchants to have limited supplies of things and resources become less valuable the more you give them.

[Czacki]

To be honest, I really like the self-sufficient mini-country that has to get everything from scratch. Marketplace kinda doesn't fit the idea. I mean, merchants are in the name of the game but nowhere to be found (and marketplace fixes that), but...You can rush metal, trade excess ore/bars/gold for food (especially gold) and rush your opponent with crossbows while he's still building farms.

If marketplace stays, I think weapons in general should be very expensive. Well, just think of it: how much gold do you need for bread? If we assume 1 bread = 1 gold coffer, then how much would it be for a sword? A sword should cost (going by logic) much more than bread, maybe 50 times more. A crossbow? Think of medieval times. How many breads would you need to buy a crossbow? My guess is: a ton.

So, I think that weaponry and Iron should be very expensive to buy for gold or food. Same with horses.

[Czacki]

Oops, pressed submit accidently. gotta register

Either way, preferably I'd totally dump marketplace (as the items magically turn into others there which doesn't fit KaM), because balancing it would make it pretty much useless, and right now it's just a one big exploit that allows you to just go for military ASAP.

[Jeronimo]

Too much crying about the Market... I also trade some resources, and isnt game-breaking.

Do you have to click on Market very often while you also command troops and expand? You are doomed then.

Despite it can help you from inminent starvation, it wont do it forever... in that time you might build food chains before startvation returns, and believe me it does. Respect military acceleration? -> Myth. Just a few strong units (like buying expensive horses).

Reminder: I think "1 iron+1 coal" should produce "Iron shields x2"... (then rebalance its market value).

[Krom]

KaM is not a medieval simulator at any scale but the most rough one (tell me it takes 10min to grow up a tree or breed a horse , fit 50 recruits and horses with weaponry in 4x4 tile space ). KaM is an RTS game, which is something alike Chess - there are certain rules that make it interesting. So all those arguments "50 bread = 1 sword" make no sense since if you do that you would also need to completely rebalance whole KaM economy and several other parts.

Marketplace serves it function as emergency depletable resource supply (gold, iron, stone). If you are upset with other ppl rushing in multiplayer - set longer peace-time, that will allow you to make an economy and 30 militia (discussed several times now) while enemy with 20 arbaletmen will starve to death.

@Lewin: Thats an interesting idea, but that would be very not-obvious why the prices change..

[The Dark Lord]

Despite it can help you from inminent starvation, it wont do it forever... in that time you might build food chains before startvation returns, and believe me it does.

Respect military acceleration? -> Myth.

I find these quotes to be contradictory.
If you can prevent starvation, you can focus on more military. You have to build food buildings, but you can do it later --> more military buildings --> more military units --> no myth.

Remember I'm not talking about going mass coal and then trade everything, I'm talking about normal iron/gold productions and then trade some resources for food while you set up your food chains.

Either way, preferably I'd totally dump marketplace

Ooooh someone agrees with me! *Does a little dance*

What do you think about making the price at the market go higher the more of that resource you trade?

I doubt that will solve it, because I could swap to trading fish or bread if sausages get too expensive. And if the resource I'm trading for them becomes too cheap, I can always switch to another (gold, gold ore, timber...). But obviously it would be better than how it is now.

Marketplace serves it function as emergency depletable resource supply (gold, iron, stone).

I completely agree, this should be the market's function.

[caykroyd]

Remember I'm not talking about going mass coal and then trade everything, I'm talking about normal iron/gold productions and then trade some resources for food while you set up your food chains.

I can't see what you mean. Most people - including me - setup their weapons production first then go to food, and I don't use the market if not on emergencies, and still I don't starve. On maps where i can, i normally make 1 fisherman's hut early game to make a little food just in case, but i normally finish food production with a few barrels of wine left when i don't
The iron production is ready by 30 mins (people get hungry about 33 minutes i have noticed). I like to make one farm and fields about 25 min far in the game, for the corn takes long to grow, and if i make it later i might not have time before my units starve.
So i make troops (you did that also on the game we played, and you didn't use your market) and i do not starve, as with most people i think.

Unless you mean really mass weapon productions.

[batoonike]

I second caykroyd. If one goes weapons + gold chests only for first 45-50 minutes, then makes farms and wineyards almost nobody starves to death ever. No market needed. Of course occasional fisher, single farm or wine yard helps a lot if starting food seems to be low. I don't see how one needs market to keep people alive, starvation starts at 60 minutes or later normally if you make 0 food buildings.

Which leads to: lower the starting food stock in order to make less rush oriented games! If the starting food was lower, people would think twice before ignoring the food production complitely. The peace time can still stay at 45-60 minutes. Lets say one player makes a few towers and a few crossbowmen, the second player makes crossbowmen + militia only. If starting food was lower, the second player could not win the game before his units starve to death. With the help of towers, a smaller number of ranged units could probably hold off larger army.

Did I accidentally prove that towers indirectly lead to more fun game?!

[GreatWhiteBear]

My next map will have low starting food.