Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

[Lord_Stronghold]

How do you suggest we "fix" it?

I am sorry) please forgive me for my stupid question

[Kridge]

I'm glad you all like my idea. We could make something that the recruit would move to the side of the catapult and controls it from there.
But the 'control' sprites would be hard to make. The movement sprites, when optimised to good 'resolution', instead of my superspeed painting here (1min) would be about 10 minutes per sprite max. I could do those unit sprites. But the 'control' sprites need to be planned, with everyones permission that that'd be the best solution.
I created only one sprite because you might not like the idea

[caykroyd]

It's great to see other people share our opinion of the town hall
It would be good to eventually make a way to create these soldiers, but just placing them in the barracks is a bad idea in my opinion. They look like rebels, raiders and wanderers, not the kind of people a king would train and equip from his barracks with his other noble soldiers.

My brother (Mau5trap) and I had a very different idea concerning the Town Hall last night. Maybe it sounds stupid, but its worth discussing.
Our chain of thought ---> Town hall was made for The Peasant Rebellion, therefore the name suggests the common folk rebelling. Our idea was to change all these units (vagabond, barbarian, etc) from the town hall (maybe put them somewhere else later) and add the common folk to be trained as soldiers, following the scheme below. There would be a timer (like the schoolhouse) for the units to be ready, and they would require gold.

Requirement | Type | Attack | Defense | Bonus | Units

1 Gold | Melee | † (1) | 0 | None | Stonemason, Miner
2 Gold | Melee | † †(2) | 0 | None | Woodcutter, Butcher, Blacksmith
2 Gold |A-Horse| †(1) | 0 |UUU (3vsHorse)| Animal Breeder (Rebel Sprite), Farmer(?)

PS.: The other units might seem a bit silly, eg.: a baker attacking with rolling pin
Note: The grand problem using these units as troops is that they have no attack sprites (exception to the animal breeder), however, could the stonemason use his stone-quarrying sprite?

//Market: Change exchange rate? (Reminding people that trade between allies and enemies should also be possible, with NO COST at all.

What do you mean? How should the exchange rate be changed? I think it's good at the moment.
Trading with other players will probably be done by connecting a road to their village then your serfs delivery wares into their "trading post" building. Then the serfs of that player can take them out of the trading post to where ever they are required.

The exchange rate is of something like 2 or 3x isn't it?? It seems too great to me when you buy iron bars for something like 8 or 9 stone and sell it for 2 or 3 :/
if u would like i could try to devise a more fair scheme :s

[Danjb]

I seem to have missed a few pages of discussion but I agree with Lewin's comments 99% of the time so I don't think I need to comment on everything.

I will say, though, that I quite like the idea of there being a way of "minimising" the side panel, as someone suggested. Obviously it's not urgent at all, and there should be a button on the side of the screen to maximize it as Lewin suggested, but I just think it could be a nice feature. Not needed, but just "nice", i.e. if you just want to sit back and watch your village be built, or perhaps to take a screenshot.

[GreatWhiteBear]

It's great to see other people share our opinion of the town hall
It would be good to eventually make a way to create these soldiers, but just placing them in the barracks is a bad idea in my opinion. They look like rebels, raiders and wanderers, not the kind of people a king would train and equip from his barracks with his other noble soldiers.

My brother (Mau5trap) and I had a very different idea concerning the Town Hall last night. Maybe it sounds stupid, but its worth discussing.
Our chain of thought ---> Town hall was made for The Peasant Rebellion, therefore the name suggests the common folk rebelling. Our idea was to change all these units (vagabond, barbarian, etc) from the town hall (maybe put them somewhere else later) and add the common folk to be trained as soldiers, following the scheme below. There would be a timer (like the schoolhouse) for the units to be ready, and they would require gold.

Requirement | Type | Attack | Defense | Bonus | Units

1 Gold | Melee | † (1) | 0 | None | Stonemason, Miner
2 Gold | Melee | † †(2) | 0 | None | Woodcutter, Butcher, Blacksmith
2 Gold |A-Horse| †(1) | 0 |UUU (3vsHorse)| Animal Breeder (Rebel Sprite), Farmer(?)

PS.: The other units might seem a bit silly, eg.: a baker attacking with rolling pin
Note: The grand problem using these units as troops is that they have no attack sprites (exception to the animal breeder), however, could the stonemason use his stone-quarrying sprite?

I don't like this idea at all.

[Jeronimo]

SUPER LIST 8 [Suggestions from Jeronimo]

1) I think that recovering some Units from Townhall is a good thing... KaM needs Military diversity.
Lets say I REALLY want to train a "Vagabund" by mixing 1 recruit/1 axe/1 horse (so it's really worth going for Stables).

Solution: Add to Barracks the next 3 Units (Which in total makes 12 different Units).
Materials for the new 3: Slinger: +Bow (simplest way) / Rebel: +Spear / Vagabund: +Axe+Horse

ORDER: Militia, Axeman, Swordman, Slinger, Bowman, Xbowman, Rebel, Spearman, Pikeman, Vagabund, Scout, Knight.
Notice that Barbarian/Warrior are missed... anyway too much Infantry (with Charge ability) makes Cavalry look less attractive.

2) Townhall: In my opinion, its best suitable for a Re-Training of citizens (like a 2nd School).
There you can switch 1 type of citizen into another. Useful for converting too many Serfs or Fisherman into another guy.
Of course, you need 1 gold chest for each exchange... (max 5 chests). There will be a TIMER too.
Only IDLE "?" will move towards Townhall. "Condition Bar" remains same state as he was before entering the building.

3) Siege Workshop: 5 timber/5 iron for a super slow machine (1/2 normal mov)?
I always liked this machines as an alternative for not massing Ranged units, and killing super heavy units with 1 hit !
Solution: Increase their base speed to "normal mov". They are still very vulnerable to arrows.

4) Barracks Resources: Same as Storehouse, I would like to put the "tiny red triangle" which marks the Resource it cannot recieve... this way I can redirect Weapons between 2 Barracks (1 accept only wood weapons/1 accept only iron weapons).

This is also very needed now with the MARKET... because Serfs only take to Market goods from Storehouse, but once Weapons are put into Barracks, Serfs cannot take them back (as when I want to trade 2 bows for 1 leather armour ).

5) Iron Shield: I think this it's a waste because with 6 irons/6 coals it's better to have 3 pikemen instead of 2 swordmen...
My suggestion is to make Iron Shield cost 1 Iron only (not coal), I base this in the Wooden Shield (which costs 1 Timber).
Seriously, for adding +20% attack (35 to 55), I prefer the anti-cavalry units -> which makes Cavalry even less attractive.

6) Hotkeys: Damn... this needs hotkeys for Unit Menu, and also some Global macro-management.
If I could configure them it would be better, otherwise for Default keys I suggest next ideas.

When nothing is selected (it rotates between same buildings of 1 type if you press 1 letter several times).
H: Storehouse
M: Market
B: Barracks
S: School
T: Townhall (Re-training IDLE citizens)

, : -> Previous/Next (military Unit), it rotates between all available Banners on scenario.
Good for finding those lost soldiers that are very hard to spot in the minimap.
SPACE: Centers on selected Building or Unit (combined with keys above improves macro-management).

When Unit is selected (default means that ALREADY exist in the game)
H: halt (default)
A: attack (default)
L: link (default)
S: split (default)
C: chow (soldiers demand for food)
-: less columns (units come out from barracks in 1 column)
+: more columns (press + many times to form a single horizontal line)
Q: turn left
W: charge
E: turn right
[Check these last 3 commands in your keyboard... thought to maximize micro-management during battle]

7) Fisherman: Why is this the only not renovable food? Its wrong.
A shoal (group of fishes) should regrow once Fisherman takes half of it.
During this time, Fisherman waits... or maybe gives them some Kroms, so its represents the action of accelerating their reproduction rate... again, once shoal is complete, he proceeds to capture them.

Note: If many fishermen are in a same lake, this means they will capture fishes fast, but then they will all have to wait... so its useless to mass... calculate 1 fisherman per 2 shoals, for working all match catching fishes.

8) Maps Pictures: I see none!
When selecting a Map in Multiplayer, I want to know its layout. I need a graphical display of the Scenario (coloured better).
With also a very important info -> the Starting Locations numbered (Apply also for Multiplayer saves... showing Map).
Its a nice add-on to choose your starting place, but is not useful if I cannot check them in the selected MAP.

[GreatWhiteBear]

IMO Siege Weapons should do splash damage(the four tiles adjacent to the tile of impact) and have at least 13 range.
This way siege weapons are very useful for fighting large amounts of troops.
Note: They should do equal amount of splash damage to own units as to enemy.

[Lewin]

I am sorry) please forgive me for my stupid question

It's not a stupid question, it is a good point. I'm just not sure how we can solve it...

My brother (Mau5trap) and I had a very different idea concerning the Town Hall last night. Maybe it sounds stupid, but its worth discussing.
Our chain of thought ---> Town hall was made for The Peasant Rebellion, therefore the name suggests the common folk rebelling. Our idea was to change all these units (vagabond, barbarian, etc) from the town hall (maybe put them somewhere else later) and add the common folk to be trained as soldiers, following the scheme below. There would be a timer (like the schoolhouse) for the units to be ready, and they would require gold.

Requirement | Type | Attack | Defense | Bonus | Units

1 Gold | Melee | † (1) | 0 | None | Stonemason, Miner
2 Gold | Melee | † †(2) | 0 | None | Woodcutter, Butcher, Blacksmith
2 Gold |A-Horse| †(1) | 0 |UUU (3vsHorse)| Animal Breeder (Rebel Sprite), Farmer(?)

PS.: The other units might seem a bit silly, eg.: a baker attacking with rolling pin
Note: The grand problem using these units as troops is that they have no attack sprites (exception to the animal breeder), however, could the stonemason use his stone-quarrying sprite?

I really dislike this idea.

The exchange rate is of something like 2 or 3x isn't it?? It seems too great to me when you buy iron bars for something like 8 or 9 stone and sell it for 2 or 3 :/
if u would like i could try to devise a more fair scheme :s

If trading was fair, then players would just build 1000 farms and trade all their corn for the other resources they need. (or whichever house makes resources fastest) They'd be no need to make an iron mine if you could produce iron faster from corn in a farm.... corn doesn't run out.
The current trade rate is 2.5 and I'm quite happy with it.

Solution: Add to Barracks the next 3 Units (Which in total makes 12 different Units).
Materials for the new 3: Slinger: +Bow (simplest way) / Rebel: +Spear / Vagabund: +Axe+Horse

That sounds stupid... since when does a slinger use a bow? And a rebel uses a pitchfork not a spear

2) Townhall: In my opinion, its best suitable for a Re-Training of citizens (like a 2nd School).
There you can switch 1 type of citizen into another. Useful for converting too many Serfs or Fisherman into another guy.
Of course, you need 1 gold chest for each exchange... (max 5 chests). There will be a TIMER too.
Only IDLE "?" will move towards Townhall. "Condition Bar" remains same state as he was before entering the building.

I don't think this would be used. I'd never build an entire building for this purpose. We plan to let players "untrain" citizens by letting them walk into the school and disappear. (gold NOT refunded)

3) Siege Workshop: 5 timber/5 iron for a super slow machine (1/2 normal mov)?
I always liked this machines as an alternative for not massing Ranged units, and killing super heavy units with 1 hit !
Solution: Increase their base speed to "normal mov". They are still very vulnerable to arrows.

If they moved at normal speed, they would be equivalent to a bowman that kills with every shot! They need SOME disadvantages. Anyway I thought we could make them only shoot at buildings, (not units) so they are a "support" unit to help you break down the enemy's towers/buildings faster. (they would destroy buildings faster than arrows) But we need to solve the "magic" of their movement first.

4) Barracks Resources: Same as Storehouse, I would like to put the "tiny red triangle" which marks the Resource it cannot recieve... this way I can redirect Weapons between 2 Barracks (1 accept only wood weapons/1 accept only iron weapons).

This is also very needed now with the MARKET... because Serfs only take to Market goods from Storehouse, but once Weapons are put into Barracks, Serfs cannot take them back (as when I want to trade 2 bows for 1 leather armour ).

This is already on the todo list, and we'll let weapons be taken out of the barracks to be traded at the market.

5) Iron Shield: I think this it's a waste because with 6 irons/6 coals it's better to have 3 pikemen instead of 2 swordmen...
My suggestion is to make Iron Shield cost 1 Iron only (not coal), I base this in the Wooden Shield (which costs 1 Timber).
Seriously, for adding +20% attack (35 to 55), I prefer the anti-cavalry units -> which makes Cavalry even less attractive.

Swordfighters are more powerful than pikemen, so they cost more. I think it's balanced. Also, I'd like to see you convert an iron bar into a shield with no fire to help you melt it.

6) Hotkeys: Damn... this needs hotkeys for Unit Menu, and also some Global macro-management.
If I could configure them it would be better, otherwise for Default keys I suggest next ideas.

Yeah we'll add more hotkeys eventually.

7) Fisherman: Why is this the only not renovable food? Its wrong.
A shoal (group of fishes) should regrow once Fisherman takes half of it.
During this time, Fisherman waits... or maybe gives them some Kroms, so its represents the action of accelerating their reproduction rate... again, once shoal is complete, he proceeds to capture them.

Yes I think we'll make fish replenish eventually, although obviously this will change the balance of the original campaign as you will have more food available. We'll need to think about that.

8) Maps Pictures: I see none!
When selecting a Map in Multiplayer, I want to know its layout. I need a graphical display of the Scenario (coloured better).
With also a very important info -> the Starting Locations numbered (Apply also for Multiplayer saves... showing Map).
Its a nice add-on to choose your starting place, but is not useful if I cannot check them in the selected MAP.

We're planning to make it generate a minimap style preview with location numbers marked on it.

IMO Siege Weapons should do splash damage(the four tiles adjacent to the tile of impact) and have at least 13 range.
This way siege weapons are very useful for fighting large amounts of troops.
Note: They should do equal amount of splash damage to own units as to enemy.

If they could shoot further than archers it would be the end of massive battles with two armies facing each other. You'd just shoot the enemy with your 1-shot-kill monsters from the the far side of the map...
Splash damage is hardly a disadvantage, if you had 20 balistae you would be able to kill hundreds of soldiers while they were still walking towards you so it wouldn't matter
I still think it'd be better if siege equipment don't shoot soldiers, only buildings.

[GreatWhiteBear]

Ok, but when they are shooting a building and your soldiers are also attacking it then your soldiers should get damaged.
And the splash damage would be way less than the normal damage AND the fire rate should go way down. About 1/4th of that of the crossbowmen.
Also the minimum range should be like 6-8 or so.

[Kridge]

I think it's indeed a good idea to make siege units only able to attack buildings.
Since the arrows of bowmen don't hurt your men too, I think the siege units would just have a precision attack as well. So no damage for your own troops.
I don't know what the ranges usually are, so I won't argue about that.

Kridge

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

*long story*
I still think it'd be better if siege equipment don't shoot soldiers, only buildings.

This is the only part I (partially) disagree with.

The ballista is an anti-infantry weapon. I wouldn't make sense to shoot large arrows at stone buildings.. I do agree with the fact it's kind of overpowered. I mean, have 3 of them and you'll be able to wipe out your enemies' entire army (just as long as you can protect them). This could mean two things:

- Balance it (but that wouldn't make sense, because everyone would die taking a giant arrow to the chest with such a force)
- Don't implement it.


A few things about the catapult. Although it "would mean the end of massive battles with two armies facing each other", it makes absolutely no sense giving a catapult the same range as bowmen. Such a construction can shoot way further than a normal human being. That's one of the reasons it was developed.

I also disagree with Kridge about the siege units should have precision attacks. Siege weapons have always been kind of 'inaccurate'. Try firing giant arrows or giant rocks over long distances and hitting your target 100% in one try. That's just not realistic. Furthermore, it wouldn't make sense that those giant stones or arrows wouldn't hurt your soldiers. Hell, if I were a soldier and we'd be attacking buildings with siege weapons, I would RUN like a maniac. I'm not going to keep hitting buildings with my cool axe if we have a few catapults that bomb the place with huge rocks.

In short:

Ballista
- Should be able to kill units (not only buildings)
- Should do 'little' damage to buildings (in comparison to catapults) since it's an anti-infantry weapon
- I don't think it should be implemented, because if we follow the 'rules', it's way too powerful for KaM.

Catapult
- Should do great damage to buildings
- Shouldn't be able to deal damage to normal units
- Should be able to withstand more damage from ranged units (really? Shooting arrows in wood doesn't matter unless it's a LOT of arrows)
- Should be able to miss quite a few times (it's not a very precise weapon)
- Should kill your or your allies' units that are attacking the same building. Even if it hits the building, the rocks would do such a great deal of damage the chance is like 90% your units will get hurt)
- Increases gameplay imo, since it takes down towers and other buildings faster, which increases game pace.
- Should be implemented

So far, my opinion

[Siegfried]

1) I think that recovering some Units from Townhall is a good thing... KaM needs Military diversity.
Lets say I REALLY want to train a "Vagabund" by mixing 1 recruit/1 axe/1 horse (so it's really worth going for Stables).

Solution: Add to Barracks the next 3 Units (Which in total makes 12 different Units).
Materials for the new 3: Slinger: +Bow (simplest way) / Rebel: +Spear / Vagabund: +Axe+Horse

ORDER: Militia, Axeman, Swordman, Slinger, Bowman, Xbowman, Rebel, Spearman, Pikeman, Vagabund, Scout, Knight.
Notice that Barbarian/Warrior are missed... anyway too much Infantry (with Charge ability) makes Cavalry look less attractive.

I would like this idea (because if you start moving troops from the town hall to barracks, then you should move ALL troops), but this has one horrible disadvantage: it completely breaks the balance!

Why recruit a bowman if you can recruit a slinger with half the cost. They can attack from distance, so the more you have, the better. A slinger spam would therefore be most promising. The bowman (which is, together with the knight, one of the most aesthetic unit in the game) would completely disappear.

Similar with the rebel. If you also introduce the vagabond, you could build a penetrative army without the need of the swine farm, tannery and armory workshop (and most likely then also without the butcher). In my opinion, this is a too massive change to game play. Currently, you can only have a relatively weak militia army without those buildings.

I'd love to have those troops introduced into kam, but not this way. Make the rebel use one pike, that would be a sufficient high price for it, but considerably less effective than a full pikemen who is much stronger.

Make the slinger use one leather piece from the tannery, his slinger is made from a leather stripe. And maybe one leather armor - the slinger still would be promising because you avoid the wood circuit to be build (which has to be build anyways for expanding your town).

And then you can introduce the vagabond with a horse and one axe.

Maybe with this ideas you could even re-introduce the town hall, then you don't have to put an additional leather slot into the barracks.

Yeah, and leave the warrior out. They are a special unit - and anyways we don't have a way to fit them into the balance.

[Kridge]

*long story*
I still think it'd be better if siege equipment don't shoot soldiers, only buildings.

This is the only part I (partially) disagree with.

The ballista is an anti-infantry weapon. I wouldn't make sense to shoot large arrows at stone buildings.. I do agree with the fact it's kind of overpowered. I mean, have 3 of them and you'll be able to wipe out your enemies' entire army (just as long as you can protect them). This could mean two things:

- Balance it (but that wouldn't make sense, because everyone would die taking a giant arrow to the chest with such a force)
- Don't implement it.


A few things about the catapult. Although it "would mean the end of massive battles with two armies facing each other", it makes absolutely no sense giving a catapult the same range as bowmen. Such a construction can shoot way further than a normal human being. That's one of the reasons it was developed.

I also disagree with Kridge about the siege units should have precision attacks. Siege weapons have always been kind of 'inaccurate'. Try firing giant arrows or giant rocks over long distances and hitting your target 100% in one try. That's just not realistic. Furthermore, it wouldn't make sense that those giant stones or arrows wouldn't hurt your soldiers. Hell, if I were a soldier and we'd be attacking buildings with siege weapons, I would RUN like a maniac. I'm not going to keep hitting buildings with my cool axe if we have a few catapults that bomb the place with huge rocks.

In short:

Ballista
- Should be able to kill units (not only buildings)
- Should do relatively 'little' damage to buildings (in comparison to catapults) since it's an anti-infantry weapon
- I don't think it should be implemented, because if we follow the 'rules', it's way too powerful for KaM.

Catapult
- Should do great damage to buildings
- Shouldn't be able to deal damage to normal units
- Should be able to withstand more damage from ranged units (really? Shooting arrows in wood doesn't matter unless it's a LOT of arrows)
- Should be able to miss quite a few times (it's not a very precise weapon)
- Should kill your or your allies' units that are attacking the same building. Even if it hits the building, the rocks would do such a great deal of damage the chance is like 90% your units will get hurt)
- Increases gameplay imo, since it takes down towers and other buildings faster, which increases game pace.
- Should be implemented

So far, my opinion

Yes, now you explain why I see why it should be hurting your own troops.
I agree with you totally on the Catapult, we just need to find a way to implent the ballista.
Maybe give it some special purpose like shooting recruits out of towers? I don't know I'm just brainstorming
Or maybe give the ballista greater range, but only slightly increased damage, because the arrow slows down when flying so long?

So when we all agree on the Catapult, only the ballista would needed to be discussed.

Kridge

[Krom]

Town hall was made for The Peasant Rebellion, therefore the name suggests the common folk rebelling. Our idea was to change all these units (vagabond, barbarian, etc) from the town hall (maybe put them somewhere else later) and add the common folk to be trained as soldiers, following the scheme below. There would be a timer (like the schoolhouse) for the units to be ready, and they would require gold.

This is rather interesting idea, first of all because it makes TownHall less cheating, and second - it can convert village folks into rebels! This is great find!

Serfs could become weakest units, and specialist-citizens more advanced (carpenters -> slingshots, breeders -> rogues, etc.). Of course leaving Barbarians out.

[Kridge]

And Farmers should become a Rebel!