Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **10 Aug 2012, 10:04**

I looked at Paradise Island again with a fresh view, and I was not really pleased with what I saw.
Some time ago, when I made this map, Lake Wololo, The Valley of Dangers and The Northern Province were the most popular maps and gameplay wasn't as fast as it is now (much smaller armies). People seemed to like maps with narrow entrances and enemies far away from their location. But as we all know now, most people here like to play on more or less open maps. Paradise Island, although never played, seems to be outdated already; I can only see massive stalemates at the bridges and in the center. Fortunately, not every player has access to iron so it won't be mass crossbow everywhere, but still...
In the first post is an image of the map. Please take a look and provide me with some feedback on what to do. I will probably remove the bridge on the right and replace it with more dirt to connect the two pieces of land, but that won't solve everything. Please share your opinion.

PostPosted: **10 Aug 2012, 12:04**

I think you should just remove both bridges, replace them with normal ground and widen it.

Also, I'd change the location numbers, because it doesn't really make sense like this

PostPosted: **10 Aug 2012, 14:55**

People seemed to like maps with narrow entrances and enemies far away from their location.

That's right, If I remembered right (to my surprise/regret) Lake Wololo was the most popular map online when I first played the remake some months ago

But as we all know now, most people here like to play on more or less open maps.

According to an old study from GWB most people like to play on maps with a narrow entrance to their base. If possible I think there are also people who want to play on maps with inaccessible positions, hehe. These are in general players who don't master the game very well and rely on many towers for their protection. This was the main reason I've starting building maps myself. Not knowing maps like Arctic Warfare would be so popular nowadays. So, luckely things have changed now.

Please take a look and provide me with some feedback on what to do.

It would be a shame to trow away this map so easely. I consider it to be the ''mother of all maps''. so my first suggestion would be to close both lakes next to the bridges so I think the bridges could be deleted also. Btw, I like bridges personally but only have not made them myself because I think it somewhat screwed up the gameplay. Furthermore, what is the function of the coal/iron on the westside of player 8 beyond the mountain?

And I have some questions in general:
What is the maximum size map that will be supported in the upcoming release?
Will the next release support more then 8 players on a map?
If so can the existing editor be used to place more players?
Is it likely there is in the next release the option in the lobby to choose for a marketplace or not?
Is it likely there is in the next release the option in the lobby to choose for a townhall or not?

I think personally the townhall will improve the gameplay alot and it shouldn't be too unbalanced since you only can recruit soldiers after peacetime, but again that is my opinion. I have the feeling already TDL doesn't share my view, but please share your thoughts...

To

PostPosted: **10 Aug 2012, 15:23**

What is the maximum size map that will be supported in the upcoming release?

During beta we will test a limit of 256x256 (Paradise Island) with 8 players to make sure it runs smoothly. If it works it will be supported in the next release, otherwise we'll see if we can make it smoother. There is a small chance it won't run smoothly and won't be supported, but I think it's unlikely. I don't think we will support more than 256x256 any time soon. It's already double the number of tiles than 192x192.

Will the next release support more then 8 players on a map?

I don't think so. It's something we'd like to support, probably for the version after this one. I'm not sure where we'd set the limit, 9, 10, 12... Each player uses more CPU and increases the chance of lag. Combining that with a 256x256 map it's a lot more CPU required.

If so can the existing editor be used to place more players?

I haven't had much success editing the source code of my editor so probably not unfortunately. If it was really important I could probably get it working but the number "8" will be hard coded into so many places and relied upon as the maximum... it's a bit of a headache to change because I wrote my editor when I was very inexperienced. This is the other reason I don't think we'll support it in the next release, we'd like to get the in-game map editor working a bit better first.

Is it likely there is in the next release the option in the lobby to choose for a marketplace or not?

No, we didn't have plans to do this anyway.

Is it likely there is in the next release the option in the lobby to choose for a townhall or not?

No, the townhall isn't implemented. (yet)

PostPosted: **10 Aug 2012, 15:31**

I think you should just remove both bridges, replace them with normal ground and widen it.

Thanks for your suggestion, I'm pretty sure now I'll remove the eastern bridge. I've never liked it anyway; I'm still a bit hesitant about the western bridge.

Also, I'd change the location numbers, because it doesn't really make sense like this

I know it looks weird, but I think this way people will be more aware of the option to play it with 6 players.

my first suggestion would be to close both lakes next to the bridges so I think the bridges could be deleted also.

Interesting suggestion. I've been thinking about splitting the western lake into smaller lakes with some paths crossing from north to south, but removing the lakes completely is a possibility I should consider.

Furthermore, what is the function of the coal/iron on the westside of player 8 beyond the mountain?

This is what I wrote a couple of posts earlier:

If you play 4v4, the area between player 7 and player 8 has extra resources in case player 7 or 8 runs out of resources. The distance to the iron may seem much larger for player 7 but the difference is pretty small. And indeed, it is also intended to be used as a place for a 9th player, if that would ever become possible. Then you wouldn't have the most balanced game, since all players on the left will have access to iron (although for player 9 it would be really far away) but that's something to take into account during the game. Or you just put the weakest team on the left. It's not ideal, but still possible.

I think personally the townhall will improve the gameplay alot and it shouldn't be too unbalanced since you only can recruit soldiers after peacetime, but again that is my opinion. I have the feeling already TDL doesn't share my view, but please share your thoughts...

I don't know... If I'd have to analyze what adding the town hall does with Remake's gameplay... I'd say this:
- People will build as many gold mines as possible right at the start to make as many gold chests as possible.
- Some might use the marketplace less because every gold chest now represents a cheap but useful soldier.
- Others will use it just as they do now or maybe even more because they have so much gold and may need more food to feed a large army. Inevitably they will run out of gold extremely fast.
- Iron is, after gold, second priority and people will only make crossbowmen because everything else is completely useless if there are huge armies of those cheap units (rebels? I'm not sure what they are called).
Maybe the town hall can be added in the future but especially the rebel has to be made more expensive; if it takes 2 gold for a single unit people won't abuse it and may only use it in cases of emergency. I DO think that, if balanced well, it adds more variety to gameplay and can make things very interesting. So all in all, I'm not indisputably against it, but it has to be tested extremely well.

Thanks for your suggestions, I really appreciate it.

PostPosted: **11 Aug 2012, 09:43**

This is how it is now (obviously I still need to make the terrain look better). Do you think it's okay? Defending at the bridge can now be risky, especially for the team in the south; when an army manages to get through on the right they can easily trap the army at the bridge.

Oh and I still have to remove the bridge on the right, but for now please look at this part of the map.

PostPosted: **11 Aug 2012, 09:53**

I think you solved the only one bridge problem at this point now, although i don't know about the army being trapped part

i have no clue how close the town will come. so maybe its also possible both routes will be blocked with towers

PostPosted: **11 Aug 2012, 11:01**

That's true... But at least you can attack from two sides now.

PostPosted: **13 Aug 2012, 22:09**

I finished Paradise Island for now. Lets say this is the beta version. I hope it will be tested when the beta comes out (maybe I can play it myself too) and hopefully I can get some more feedback about the map, especially the connections between the teams. I updated the download link in the first post but haven't updated the image of the map yet, I'll do that when I'm sure Paradise Island is finished.
I'm afraid that I now won't be able to finish Majestic Waters in time, but we'll see.

http://www.2shared.com/file/MSidz9_v/Pa ... sland.html

PostPosted: **14 Aug 2012, 22:40**

The map looks promising if you ask me, i definately will give it a try when it comes out

PostPosted: **15 Aug 2012, 01:58**

I looked at the updated map, and the changes you did are great imo. I'll surely try to test it during the beta test, looks like we can come up with some interesting games on this map !

PostPosted: **16 Aug 2012, 07:51**

Thanks guys, I'll be looking forward to receive more feedback.

PostPosted: **17 Aug 2012, 10:05**

KaM Remake is broken when i try open Paradise Island.
"EAsserionFailed
Can't open the map cos it has too big dimension (C:\Projects\Kam Reamke\KM_MissionScript.pas, line 1232"
It's weird because I do not even have this folder on the hard

PostPosted: **17 Aug 2012, 10:22**

KaM Remake is broken when i try open Paradise Island.
"EAsserionFailed
Can't open the map cos it has too big dimension (C:\Projects\Kam Reamke\KM_MissionScript.pas, line 1232"
It's weird because I do not even have this folder on the hard

KaM Remake doesn't yet work with maps as big as Paradise Island. Wait for the next release which should come in about a month (and it should have Paradise Island included)

PostPosted: **17 Aug 2012, 10:23**

KaM Remake is broken when i try open Paradise Island.
"EAsserionFailed
Can't open the map cos it has too big dimension (C:\Projects\Kam Reamke\KM_MissionScript.pas, line 1232"
It's weird because I do not even have this folder on the hard

That's because the current version does not support Paradise Island's map size.

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