Scripting demo release candidate

[dicsoupcan]

@Pizza: You was very convincing with last few posts. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

So it looks like there's more to the building order than it seems. Certain maps (CR, GC, BR) became a de-facto standard for skirmish battles (like a DeDust for CS or a Deck17 for UT). Any change to those is greatly undesirable. Looks like we can apply new build order en mass, but provide dynamic script templates for mapmakers to keep special maps as they were.

Perfect examples krom, i can suport this.

[Siegfried]

Ok another example : You have some students in school playing basketball against each other and two top teams in the NBA playing against each other . (...)

Your example suffers from one point: it's not the game itself that is challenging. Take any game, take football or basketball or whatever. Each game is so absolutely easy. Put the ball into the net, do not foul, you must/must not touch the ball with your hand only. Some offside, that's it.

The challenge just and only comes from the opponents! To have fun, you need opponents that are somewhat near your skill level. If you know the result before, it's boring. If you don't it's fun. And therefore NBA and high school are the very damn same thing!

In the game it's the same. The fun comes from good matches that are close. If you know before that your opponent won't make any army in pt, it's no fun at all. But the whole changes here apply to all players. So still it is this way: look for opponents of your skill, and you will have fun.

If it's the building only that you are interested in, then wait until an economy mode is implemented. The current building mode is all about destroying your opponents. And only that. Building is just needed to achieve that, it has no further meaning in this mode. Trying to make this harder is the same as putting rocks onto the football field saying "the good players will learn to avoid". That's not how excitement is created.

I still hope some economy mode finds its way into the game one day. I am very much waiting for this because I also am very interested in building and rather not interested in fighting and destroying others. That's what the battle missions are for.

[Lewin]

I still hope some economy mode finds its way into the game one day. I am very much waiting for this because I also am very interested in building and rather not interested in fighting and destroying others. That's what the battle missions are for.

Someone could very easily make a scripted map with economic objectives. You can show the current score for each overlaid on the screen (or however the objective works). Objectives (what resources to make) could even be chosen at random each time the map starts. There's endless possibilities.

And if somebody makes this they can enter it in the scripted map competition! Remember you can work in teams of two, one person could write the script and the other person make the map (terrain). I'd personally love to see somebody try this

[thunder]

Hi!
Is the building way changes only because the first five minutes or for the faster and more variety games?
I think there are more options also to make a game faster and not only in the first five or 10 minutes. For examlpe play 5++ builder. I tried out how much fast with 1 builder and 2 builder:) /possible i will upgrade somemapos to 2 builders. just for fun/
Why not chose 10builder 10 serfs for the start or something similar?:)
There are some maps where not enough stone in the storehouse to build woodcutter also, so there the opened woodcutter after the school is total unnecesarry.
I think was logic behind the original building way.
Until 5057 the mapmakers could play with large time scale-faster, slower game:(some maps possible to make goldproduction in 12-15 minute, but somewhere only 20-25)
a.,opened stonemason: skip the inn (here win some minutes the player)
b.,opened woodcutter: early woodproduction- early sawmill-earlier goldproduction(here win time-growing trees)
c.,opened farms: give chance to the leathergamers also(win the corn growing time+the time until the sawmill)

and now?
after the school the players have opened stone and woodcutter- this version not a much time slower than a,b...

I think with this version we lost many possibilites, all game nearly will be the same but win good things also.
+opened stonemason give a storngest thing what you can imagine: can give a better location to your inn! not always around the store(example:BitD loc4).

There are pros and cons.

How i see 5057 is a total different remake than were before. I think now changed too much things at the same time. Now Hard to decide or hard to say corn growing is effective(or necesarry), because in this release the farms are possible earlier...etc. I think need again lot test to everything. How can tell the corngrowing time is good or bad, or need to be a little bit slow or faster. or does the corn values need changes in the market because growing faster?

I think to need the original buiding way to Golden Cliffs and Boarde Rivers, because these two maps what the most tester guys play always in the all release, they know really well. This two maps are the standards and useful to compare releases.

Lewin

Re: Scripting demo release candidate
The other day Krom and I just had a discussion about the arguments against this change, and I thought you'd like to read it some of what was said: (summarised by me)

1 - "I don't like it, it's not KaM style"
Makes no sense, KAM style allows to unlock many things at once later in the game. Besides it's not as if we unlock smelter before mines or something.

2 - "Newbies get confused by being offered more than one thing to build"
I don't think it's a big deal, that happens in all RTS games, KaM's initial linear tech tree is very uncommon (most games you can build 5 or so things right at the start). How many other RTS games restrict you to 1 option of what to build for the first 5 buildings? This change gives you more choices and less restrictions that slowdown the game. Storehouse, school and inn are unlocked together, that's sensible as they're all core buildings in your village. Woodcutter and stonemason are unlocked next because they're both for supplying building materials.

3 - "Players forget to build the inn because in multiplayer you must build it later in order to keep up with your enemies"
That's an important issue. Forgetting to build the inn is certainly a mistake but it's a bit harsh for it to be a fatal mistake. Two options to fix this:
a) School unlocks nothing, Inn unlocks stonemasons+woodcutters
b) Player gets shown a message when units are getting hungry but he doesn't have an inn (could be shown a few minutes in advance of units first getting hungry, so the player has 5-10 minutes to build the inn before anyone starves to death)
We think b) is the better option, because a) means the early game is sped up less, plus the inn is not needed for the first 20 minutes of the game.

4 - "Maps will need rebalancing"
That happens with lots of changes we make, we'll post a memo in the next RC email so the map authors are aware of it.

5 - "Map authors should be able to choose build order, why can't they choose the old original one?"
They can thanks to dynamic scripts. And maybe this will encourage more map makers to try out dynamic scripts and see how powerful/fun they are

6 - "Why does this apply to singleplayer too?"
Because we want to it to be a global change, in the same way we also made the shields defence bonus in both SP and MP. Making the early game more interesting and giving the player more choice applies equally to SP as it does to MP. Also, in singleplayer players can choose to what they do, there's no need to rush to build as much as possible before peacetime ends. So people who don't like the change can simply ignore it and build the old way (school, inn, stonemason, woodcutter) if they want to, so it's a very minor change which only affects players who choose to use it (and if you have some special SP map which requires a certain build order you can customise it with scripts)

How i see you discussed all possibilities, but forget one...

[Lewin]

@thunder: Corn growth rate was not changed. The only change is that farmers waste less time by walking to a field that is being used by another farmer. They're smarter at detecting when a farmer is already at another field, and they prefer to use fields closer to their own farm rather than another farmer's farm. We did similar optimisations for stonemasons and woodcutters in the past and I don't think it's going to have a big impact on balance.

[thunder]

Then i have to say Pardon!


the languages always make me fool:(
I should to learn it...

[BloodTree]

Speaking of early wood cuter and other early buildings and skipping them. It do not mean that you don`t need build them later and it takes time to build them too. When you plant tree it do not means that you can cut it already. Trees need time to grow. There is maps where you can take wood but it just bit far but if you want you can take it.
Is there time when you just waiting for wood?
Only thing what effect really build speed is how fast you can recruit your workers. And if you recruit them too much can you feed them.
Can you build now in thous 60 of pt like 150 buildings if Build speed is still same?
Can you build now larger iron armored army coz if iron vs wood will win iron.
Most popular Map Back in the Desert nothing changed there!
That part with wood is so tiny its like from the flies blow elephant.
Now i sound like a drunk guy who grind and grind the same.

[dicsoupcan]

Speaking of early wood cuter and other early buildings and skipping them. It do not mean that you don`t need build them later and it takes time to build them too. When you plant tree it do not means that you can cut it already. Trees need time to grow. There is maps where you can take wood but it just bit far but if you want you can take it. Is there time when you just waiting for wood?

the earlier woodcutters mean that they plant earlier, wich means you get new wood earlier while you haven't used up all of your old wood yet. Yes in the old unlock order you had to wait for wood when you timed it poorly.

Only thing what effect really build speed is how fast you can recruit your workers. And if you recruit them too much can you feed them.

you can get earlier goldmines, wich means earlier gold and more workers.

Can you build now in thous 60 of pt like 150 buildings if Build speed is still same?

Yes you can make more buildings now, i already stated my base was larger then usual.

Can you build now larger iron armored army coz if iron vs wood will win iron.

you get earlier iron, wich results in more iron units. you also get earlier wooden weapons.

Most popular Map Back in the Desert nothing changed there!

offcourse back in the desert did not change,it has woodcutter already unlocked before the school is build. this map cannot be compared to traditional unlock order maps.

That part with wood is so tiny its like from the flies blow elephant.

that part about wood start tiny, but snowballs into a larger impact, wich is also stated earlier.

Now i sound like a drunk guy who grind and grind the same.

those are not my words but ok, you said it.

[Siegfried]

And if somebody makes this they can enter it in the scripted map competition! Remember you can work in teams of two, one person could write the script and the other person make the map (terrain). I'd personally love to see somebody try this

Actually ... that's a very good idea.

[Remake 2012]

Error

Podpis problemu:
Nazwa zdarzenia problemu: APPCRASH
Nazwa aplikacji: KaM_Remake.exe
Wersja aplikacji: 0.0.0.0
Sygnatura czasowa aplikacji: 2a425e19
Nazwa modułu z błędem: USP10.dll
Wersja modułu z błędem: 1.626.7600.16385
Sygnatura czasowa modułu z błędem: 4a5bdb32
Kod wyjątku: c0000005
Przesunięcie wyjątku: 00045afe
Wersja systemu operacyjnego: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.256.1
Identyfikator ustawień regionalnych: 1045
Dodatkowe informacje 1: 3483
Dodatkowe informacje 2: 3483ee7121a16207a249322c091b709d
Dodatkowe informacje 3: 6053
Dodatkowe informacje 4: 6053336e8dd9a0550d8030f8b7b9139e

[Jeronimo]

Little suggestions and worse opinions I have:

In Multiplayer when you press ENTER, you open your Chat window... I think the other 2 windows deserve their own hotkey.
+ Add hotkey [Av Pág] for Diplomacy window and another [Re Pág] for Messages window.
The goal is to guarantee quick access to information.
---------------------------------------------

My worse opinions not mentioned yet here, are:
* The new visuals with 3D slider (for options/distribution of wares) doesn't fit at all.
Esthetics says that the button looks too broad, and the white left side is too shiny.
Anyway... the 3D has nothing to do there at a 2D background.

*The new visuals of Statistics (in-game -> F3 key). Why?
The original display in 2 columns with enough space to read between groups was great enough.
In this demo, everything in 1 column and many squares altogether at the bottom is really... imagine the word

*Market rates: I'd like to see meet 2.0 version again.
If Farms are better... then why increasing value of corn at market? NOW is when it should be "1 fish->1 corn" for example.
I also disagree about stones, in 2.0 you could "1 timber/1 food-> 2 stones". In this demo almost every raw material gives just 1 stone (this is a super primary resource, shouldn't be expensive).

Horses must have kept their 6 trunks trading... because now with the new farms, the material loss is "higher" in comparison.
There are many rates to talk about, I just mentioned the most discussed in topics.
-----------------------------------------------

Overall there are lots of possitive changes but writing about them is unnecessary.
I wrote above the big bomb... what it needs attention in order to "improve" the demo.

[Ben]

If Farms are better... then why increasing value of corn at market? NOW is when it should be "1 fish->1 corn" for example.
I also disagree about stones, in 2.0 you could "1 timber/1 food-> 2 stones". In this demo almost every raw material gives just 1 stone (this is a super primary resource, shouldn't be expensive).

Horses must have kept their 6 trunks trading... because now with the new farms, the material loss is "higher" in comparison.
There are many rates to talk about, I just mentioned the most discussed in topics.

No, the marketplace before was too easy to abuse. Trading food for food was ridiculous.
Also, the tree-trunk for horse trade was terribly overpowerd. It way too easy to produce late-game horses with trunks, which is not the intent of the marketplace.

[Remake 2012]

I'll write again.

Add to editor: the initial area to start. (Water, sand, mud, etc.)

Always start the grass. If you would like to make a map that contains a lot of water, you have to paint a lot of land. (In the case of large maps, 192x192, 256x256 - lots and lots of time)

Second: Speed in pt and pf off:

I do not like.
I set in the lobby of time (eg 60 minutes) with acceleration 3x = total gives me 20 minutes of playing time. (Real time) but I would like to play 60 minutes with accelerated 3x! Before, it was like this: I set 40 minutes "pt" in the lobby and play 40 minutes in real time. Setting time "pt" should be in real time.

[Ben]

I set in the lobby of time (eg 60 minutes) with acceleration 3x = total gives me 20 minutes of playing time. (Real time) but I would like to play 60 minutes with accelerated 3x! Before, it was like this: I set 40 minutes "pt" in the lobby and play 40 minutes in real time. Setting time "pt" should be in real time.

I disagree. That would be terribly confusing, and you'd have to calculate it/memorize the formula for every time and speed setting.

[Lewin]

The 2nd release candidate has been sent out! This probably won't be the last release candidate (there's still a bit left on our todo list), but we wanted to get these fixes out to you quickly. You should have received it by email if you are on our testers list.