Wilderness polished version

[Lewin]

@To: No that script you posted was generated by my editor, you can see from all the comments added. Take a look at the script of the original Wilderness in 0.3 of my editor, it looks nothing like that. Maybe you can edit the original script with the new building/center screen positions (copy and paste them over to the same place if you like)

To be honest I'm not really fond of this. The changes seem fair, but I just dislike the idea of changing an original map. Especially replacing it by a fan-made version seems wrong to me. If people want to play on a fair map, choose a different one.

Please discuss this, I'd like to hear options from lots of people. Personally I think it's ok to rebalance it, maybe we could release "Wilderness Balanced" as well as just Wilderness? Although that's not ideal, I'm not sure...
The original maps are not "perfect", I doubt the creators of KaM actually played many multiplayer games on them, (back in 1998 when they were made...) they have probably hardly been tested for balance.

[Leeuwgie]

Ok, I'm not sure why it was needed but here is the '!command' script only. This is as short as it can get, how importent is the use of white spaces between the lines in the script? I've seen in the original sometimes no spaces and sometimes 2 between lines. I've replaced the !set house with !set stock otherwise I had a overlapping double storehouse lol.
Just to be sure, do you want me to use only 0.3 for all mapmaking concerning the dat.files? Cause I thought it was only needed for 6+ multiplayer maps...

So this is script only, without the useless lines:

!SET_MULTIPLAYER
!SET_MAP "\MapsMP\Wilderness\Wilderness.map"
!SET_MAX_PLAYER 4

!DISTRIBUTE_MULTIPLAYER_POSITIONS

!SET_CURR_PLAYER 0

!IF VALID_PLAYER

!CENTER_SCREEN 22 138

!CLEAR_UP 20 140 25

!RELEASE_HOUSE 14
!RELEASE_HOUSE 9

!SET_STREET 23 140 !SET_STREET 22 140 !SET_STREET 21 140

!SET_STOCK 23 139

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0

!ENDIF

!SET_CURR_PLAYER 1

!IF VALID_PLAYER

!CENTER_SCREEN 133 28

!CLEAR_UP 129 31 25

!RELEASE_HOUSE 14
!RELEASE_HOUSE 9

!SET_STREET 134 30 !SET_STREET 133 30 !SET_STREET 132 30

!SET_STOCK 134 29

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0

!ENDIF

!SET_CURR_PLAYER 2

!IF VALID_PLAYER

!CENTER_SCREEN 31 26

!CLEAR_UP 27 24 25

!RELEASE_HOUSE 14
!RELEASE_HOUSE 9

!SET_STREET 32 28 !SET_STREET 31 28 !SET_STREET 30 28

!SET_STOCK 32 27

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0

!ENDIF

!SET_CURR_PLAYER 3
!IF VALID_PLAYER

!CENTER_SCREEN 142 131

!CLEAR_UP 147 127 25

!RELEASE_HOUSE 14
!RELEASE_HOUSE 9

!SET_STREET 143 133 !SET_STREET 142 133 !SET_STREET 141 133

!SET_STOCK 143 132

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 9

!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0
!SET_UNIT_BY_STOCK 0

!ENDIF

!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 1 90
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 2 50
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 7 40
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 10 25
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 8 40
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 13 10
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 27 20

!IF MEDIUM_WARES
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 7 20
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 10 10
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 8 20
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 13 5
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 27 10
!ENDIF


!SET_UNIT 25 2 61 !SET_UNIT 25 17 55 !SET_UNIT 25 12 58 !SET_UNIT 26 8 57 !SET_UNIT 26 14 59 !SET_UNIT 31 6 58
!SET_UNIT 25 170 165 !SET_UNIT 25 165 173 !SET_UNIT 25 151 170 !SET_UNIT 25 141 173 !SET_UNIT 25 123 173 !SET_UNIT 26 131 170 !SET_UNIT 26 156 173 !SET_UNIT 26 171 170 !SET_UNIT 27 164 169 !SET_UNIT 27 135 172 !SET_UNIT 28 146 166 !SET_UNIT 28 135 165 !SET_UNIT 28 125 167 !SET_UNIT 28 120 168 !SET_UNIT 28 169 158 !SET_UNIT 28 172 156 !SET_UNIT 25 118 108 !SET_UNIT 25 122 109 !SET_UNIT 25 120 111 !SET_UNIT 25 131 111 !SET_UNIT 26 129 113 !SET_UNIT 26 123 107 !SET_UNIT 26 119 109 !SET_UNIT 24 22 168 !SET_UNIT 24 15 171 !SET_UNIT 24 42 44 !SET_UNIT 24 46 50 !SET_UNIT 24 74 33 !SET_UNIT 24 68 30 !SET_UNIT 24 169 37 !SET_UNIT 24 172 46 !SET_UNIT 24 170 76 !SET_UNIT 24 162 73 !SET_UNIT 24 58 104 !SET_UNIT 25 18 62 !SET_UNIT 27 146 171 !SET_UNIT 27 173 163

[Lewin]

I just meant that if you have edited the original script with 0.9 of my editor some data could have been lost if the original script was formatted strangely. Opening the original missions in my editor and resaving them sometimes messed it up a bit, because my editor expects straight logical formatting but the original missions are a bit messy and sometimes take shortcuts my editor doesn't understand.
But if you've tested it and it works ok then there should be no harm in it. I don't care about unnecessary lines or comments, I just meant some commands might have been lost compared to the original. There's no reason to edit in 0.3 of my editor for missions like that and there's no need to remove comments or make the script smaller.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway back to the topic: Please post your opinions about whether this update should be included at all, replacing the original or separate as "Wilderness Balanced".

[Da Revolution]

Replacing it is a bit harsh i think but when you add it one of those two won't be played at all. Considering these things i still think adding it would be better than replacing.

[Florek]

I'm for adding it. No time for testing before release of 4th demo, so we will have much time to test it before 5th release, but alternative still remains.

[Leeuwgie]

I wasn't my idea to replace it, but I think it's also unwise to choose 2 different versions of the same map. Mully said to me that Wilderness will likely be used as the main map in the upcoming tournament. It's clear to everyone that the map as it is now is very unbalanced. This has (almost) nothing to do with the map itself but (mostly) with balance only. I've exclusively played this map for over 2 months now (100+ games). It's a unique map otherwise I wouldn't play it ofcourse. But I also know as no other what the problems are. What can possibly be wrong about adding some trees and gold and close 1 entrance to the north for player 4? One ironmine didn't work and that's fixed for player 1 so this player can now, just like the others build 4 ironmines inside his base if he wants to. Also, the little things like deleting trees from coal (player 1) and putting more gold in a mountain like it should be (player 2). Above that it now has a normal sight from start, there are many new players around who don't know this map and in some cases even stone is too far away to see from the start. Also many sharp tiles are fixed so it looks more realistic. So, based on the use of this map in online games I think everyone (I mean people who actually play this map online) agrees what the problems are but nobody (myself included) likes to see change on original maps. But hey, that's why I called it polished and not a makeover or something. I've done some testing (singleplay and multiplay) to see if it works the way it was intended and all works like it should, it's actually way better now playing on loc 4.

I think at it this way: it's like a missed opportunity to take an unimproved map into an improved new release, but that's just my opinion.

If someone wants to test the improved loc 4 in singleplay like I did be my guest, choose local server in the lobby and set peacetime on 60 mins.

Btw, this is the latest link (with the prebuild fixed in the .dat file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?b8qnrsyc2mpc0nb

Have a nice day,
To

[The Dark Lord]

I'm against replacing it. I'm not really fond of adding it either, but I can see why people would like to see it rebalanced.

Mully said to me that Wilderness will likely be used as the main map in the upcoming tournament. It's clear to everyone that the map as it is now is very unbalanced. This has (almost) nothing to do with the map itself but (mostly) with balance only. I've exclusively played this map for over 2 months now (100+ games). It's a unique map otherwise I wouldn't play it ofcourse.

I think this is an invalid argument. There are tons of maps and if you decide to have a tournament, you will have to choose or create a map to play on. If a map does not suit your wishes for a tournament map, you shouldn't change it to fit your needs but you should just choose a different map.
The most balanced map out there is definately Valley of Dangers, but as you might have noticed that balance comes at a price: the terrain quality. Wilderness is a wonderful map but might not be the fairest among them; In my opinion we'll just have to cope with that.

But I also know as no other what the problems are. What can possibly be wrong about adding some trees and gold and close 1 entrance to the north for player 4?

I can see your point but I do think it's wrong. Paker copied parts of original maps and used it in his own maps. I burnt him down for doing that, but you actually took the whole map and just changed some things (I realise the huge difference is that you don't present it as your own, so don't worry ). I think we should have zero tolerance on changing/copying from original maps, as this might just be the beginning. You rebalanced it, but everyone has his own thoughts about how fair the map is. And about other maps too. If people notice the new rebalanced Wilderness among the other maps, they might want to make Border Rivers more balanced too. Or other maps.

[Leeuwgie]

Ok guys, I just did an interesting game online on the original Wilderness against some proffesional players. I like to post the replay here to show you what's wrong with the original map. I can talk about it here in the forum but I think it's even better to show it in a replay. And I thought I could do aswell a review rightaway (I watched it 4 times on 10x speed).

The players in team 1: To (red player on loc 2) and CCC (white player on loc 1).
The players in team 2: Mulberry (yellow player on loc3) and Chechboss (blue player on loc 4).
We played random (peacetime is always 60 mins) and it turned out to be crosswise teams (which is extra hard/fun because you can be attacked from 2 sides).

About the red player: I went for fast goldmines and had 2 goldsmelters up and a marketplace around 20 mins, then I went straight for iron and 1 smelter. It's good to build a storehouse by the coalfield so I did and builded my 3rd goldsmelter for trading later on. When I ran out of wood I didn't trade just wood from the market but logs instead (1 chest = 1 log = 2 wood). Then I decided to go for more coalmines and then straight to farms. I did a fast pigfarm and stable while also building 2 armory's and 1 weaponsmith (2/1 because the weaponsmith works a little bit faster and I decided to go for knights which also need a shield) I didn't want to wait for grain so I bought about 30 in the market (1 chest = 1 grain).
I've never played like 80% of all players online usually do: build as many crossbows (and mostly mass militia too) as possible and chechboss is no exception (he trains only xbows and more xbow to counter with) I always try to do a mix of troops. I normally train swordmen too but they are not as good as they should be in this release. Then I went for another ironsmelter, made another pigfarm and produced some leather. Notice how easy I could digg myself in at 5 mins before peacetime was over (that's why I created another entrance in the polished version) However loc 2 isn't an easy loc so I had after 60 mins about 15 xbows, some regular bows and some militia but I did have my 12 knights (which do cost lots of time and resources). So I scouted (important) with 3 militia and the knights. So I found with my horses only about 15 xbows from Chechbos and chased them into his base. At that point Mulberry came with some horses to aid Chechboss so I retreated and came 4 mins later with my mixed group of bows and some militia to defeat Mully's horses and some fresh xbows and then destroyed his base.

The battle continued against Mullberry who was safely behind his towers in his base. He eliminated CCC troops who came to attack him and later on my bunch of bows and my other troops while I killed over half his army (it was a nice shoot-out). Because I had no troops left he tried a counterattack on my base but failed. Then CCC and me worked together and messed up his base so we were victorious after about 93 mins.

About the white player: CCC went for very fast iron and gold (with a market) then a 2nd storehouse, 2 armory's and 1 weaponsmith. He did no farms untill about 40 mins ingame. He had suffered alot from congestion by his 2nd storehouse, what slowed him down. So he did't had leather units in time. He trained some pikes, xbows and militia (who were needlessly killed later on btw) and waited for Mully to attack but he didn't came so he decided to go over to his base to find his troops slaughtered in no time (Mully knows very well how to flank someones army). Then he decided to bring 12 knights on the battlefield who killed many of Mully's xbows.

About the yellow player: Mulberry Is a good player so he had a decent buildorder. He exploited his nice loc by going for many wood and did some fast farms. He also did gold early on and made 3 goldsmelters total and a market. He did also a stables and 2 armory's and a weaponsmith (made a 2nd later on for more xbows). Then he did some extra coal and farms and was in time to produce leather units. He builded 5! weapon makers but I didn't see that much bows or militia tbh, however he had a nice amount of lance carriers (to counter the horses). When the peacetime was over he came out with about 7/8 knights and 18 xbows and 4 lance carriers. At the time CCC attacked him (75 mins ingame) he had some 15 more xbows and a nice group of axe fighters (don't see them much online) and because he lost his initial horses he had only 4 knights. CCC lost them all while Mully had almost no losses. He also decimated my army (by clever flanking) and counterattacked me but failed so he was defeated 15 mins later by knights (CCC's vengeance) and the remains of what I have left. It must be said that none of us had much food but Mully had no food at all. So the towers were unmanned what cost him the game too early.

About the blue player: Chechboss is one of the best players (I've been told, but can't remember played him before) who struggled on loc 4 to make progress. He did what he could but he had not enough wood to start with, what slowed him down alot. He tried to build his buildorder I guess but you can see he simply didn't had the time to finish it before peacetime was over. So he even ignored towers which is never a good idea on loc 4. The saddest thing I noticed was that it took him 35 mins! to complete his 1st goldsmelter. You can imagine how bad that is concerning the balance on this loc (knowing Chechboss isn't a newbie). I was on loc 2 having 2 goldsmelters around 20 mins. remember? So he simply didn't have the amount of serfs needed to keep up with the rest of the players. Ofcourse he didn't have leather units available or even militia. So I could complain more but If you've seen the replay yourself I think you understand my point with this loc. even if you never played this map. Understandable that he was angry and didn't say anything when he left. End of review.

Downloadlink for the replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?absxdlz1madny9y

To

[Da Revolution]

they might want to make Border Rivers more balanced too. Or other maps.

There is already a balanced version of border rivers in the next release.

[The Dark Lord]

Yes, but it doesn't involve map changes if I'm correct. Not that I approve of adding/removing resources from storehouses, but still...

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

[...]

You should write those all script in

  Code:

, because it 's too long.

Done.

[Piko]

[...]

You should write those all script in

  Code:

, because it 's too long.

Done.

You missed code on next page

[Leeuwgie]

And btw it was getting late yesterday so I forgot to post the statistics, I hope you understand dutch a little (soldaten verslagen = defeated soldiers). Interesting, note Czechboss defeated only 2 enemies:


And here's a screen of one of my 1st tests (I traded for food in this example) on the improved Wilderness from some weeks ago (on loc 4) I haven't saved the replay so I have only this screen:


To

[The Dark Lord]

Long live the marketplace.

[Florek]

Much troops, but no food production. I made today on your map above 100 high quality troops (including many leathers), and total 100 buildings in about an hour. On location 1 of course, I think still 4 is too weak. Also I don't like the idea to unlock quarry and woodcutter at start.