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Speeding up the early game

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FeyBart

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Knight

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Joined: 28 Dec 2011, 16:35

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Location: Nutville, NL

Post 09 Mar 2013, 23:01

Re: Speeding up the early game

(...)
If at the one hand is to make the quality of the game better, and that includes a better learning curve for new players, then build order unlocking can be a great tool to improve quality. Because it is a change from the original does not make it bad at all. In some sense, the original game also locked some buildings during single player campaign: the first time you play, you also cannot create iron mines or stables.
(...)
If guiding new players is the goal of your proposal, then I still think your proposal is wrong. Like I said before, that will just confuse new players, as they wouldn't know what building to build first, and which building belongs to which chain. They intentionally did it this way, to show which buildings should be built before the other.
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Krom

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Post 10 Mar 2013, 05:40

Re: Speeding up the early game

@FeyBart: And for that reason exactly we have a so-called "Town Tutorial" which explains everything step-by-step
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H.A.H.

Lance Carrier

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Joined: 26 Dec 2012, 23:51

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Post 10 Mar 2013, 06:41

Re: Speeding up the early game

You're not getting my point. It includes new players, but it is still a great tool for all players to change game speed and style.

You accept the proposition that the Inn+School should be unlocked (or the Stonemason+Woodcutter, for that matter), that means that atleast you are seeing that the unlocking mechanism changes something about the game speed or how cities are built.

Generalize this and you get my idea of other unlocking orders. I shall not speak about new players, because this proposal is about every player (including new players):

(First a small note about syntax: [building1, building2 -> building3, building4] means that building1 AND building2 are required before unlocking building3 and building 4.)

[Storehouse -> School -> Inn -> Stonemason -> Woodcutter -> Sawmill]
[Stonemason -> Tower]
This is the standard order, which is very linear (unlock only 1 or 2 building(s) at the time)

Now, for a thought experiment, consider the following buildings that are unlocked after the Sawmill.

[Sawmill -> Farm, Vineyard, Fisherman]
It is now impossible to build a baracks or a weapon smith and requires the player to build these buildings first (a slowdown, and change in playstyle!).

[Farm -> Mill, Pigfarm]
[Vineyard -> Weaponmaker]
[Fisherman -> Weaponmaker]
[Mill -> Bakery]
[Barkery -> Weaponmaker]
[Pigfarm -> Butcher]
[Butcher -> Weaponmaker]
After atleast one source of food for in the inn, the weaponmaker is available. This means that atleast one source of food has to be provided, before one is able to make weapons. Note here: a player is "rewarded" for choosing multiple food sources as a) it means a faster build for the Weaponmaker, and b) the Butcher allows progress.
[Weaponmaker -> Baracks]
And whenever one is able to produce weapons, then it makes sense to build a baracks to train soldiers. Training soldiers costs gold,
[Baracks -> Gold mine, Coal mine]
Also note that due to limiting starting resources, the game style is leveled between skilled and non-skilled players (making it more fun for everybody? that's argumentattive): it is not possible for a pro-player to create a huge city before the baracks/gold mine is built as all resources are depleted at that time. This requires clever planning. But also, it slows the game a bit down.
[Gold mine, Coal mine -> Gold smelter]
It only makes sense that a gold smelter is available after both gold mine AND coal mine is completed (also slowing the game a tiny bit down).
And let's continue on the leather weapon tour:
[Weaponmaker, Pigfarm -> Tannery]
[Tannery -> Armory workshop]
[Armory workshop -> Stables]
As you can see, the game is slowed by this order (it continues with iron, but this is sufficient to see the point). It makes the game easier to understand (for novice players) but harder to plan (for expert players) and the challenge is to make sure you don't run out of resources when you expand too fast. Experts probably go for [Vineyard -> Weaponmaker -> Baracks -> Gold mine, Coal mine -> Gold smelter] to ensure a stable gold production, before expanding. Certain trade-offs are possible: it is possible to train lots of builders (and faster progression), but then one cannot train population for buildings until Gold smelter is functioning. On the other hand, few builders have fewer tasks to concentrate on and the economy is started earlier and starts production earlier.


Now consider another build order, which changes the game speed the other way, i.e. it makes it faster.

[Storehouse -> School, Inn -> Stonemason, Woodcutter, Tower]
[Woodcutter -> Sawmill]
(both the School and the Inn are needed but unlocks the Stonemason and Woodcutter and Tower)

[Sawmill -> Gold mine, Coal mine -> Gold smelter]
(both the Gold and Coal mines are needed before the Smelter is unlocked)

[Gold smelter -> Fisherman, Farm, Mill, Bakery, Pig Farm, Butcher, Vineyard, Stables]
[Fisherman -> Iron mine, Iron smelter, Weaponmaker, Baracks]
[Bakery -> Iron mine, Iron smelter, Weaponmaker, Baracks]
[Butcher -> Iron mine, Iron smelter, Weaponmaker, Baracks]
[Vineyard -> Iron mine, Iron smelter, Weaponmaker, Baracks]
Do you notice that the game speed is changed? Because one is able to plan all these buildings at the same time, and gold was already in production, one can plan their cities faster and more builders build them faster. However, one is still not able to produce weapons before atleast some food is provided, and to hold back rushers to produce atleast some kind of food.

[Weaponmaker, Pigfarm -> Tannery, Armory workshop]
[Iron mine, Iron smelter -> Weapon smithy, Armor smithy]


As you can see, these changes of unlocking order change the way the game is played. The former is more focussed on resource and spatial planning, while the latter is more focussed on speedup and micromanagement. Note that as a general rule, the more buildings are unlocked each step <-> the faster the game plays.

I think the unlocking order should be determined by the map maker, and not be set as a general rule or game mode. It really depends on the map what makes sense. If the storehouse initially contains weapons, then the Baracks should be unlocked after the Sawmill, etc. All older maps still use the traditional KaM-way of unlocking buildings.
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Da Revolution

Knight

Posts: 720

Joined: 13 Apr 2012, 12:07

Location: Near the inn

Post 10 Mar 2013, 08:55

Re: Speeding up the early game

To be honest, both of your ideas make the game slower. Also it doesn't make sense building a baker for example when you got no corn production yet (can take 10 mins more).
We do not need gold necessarily for recruits..so building gold mines and stuff after the barracks? makes no sense in my opinion.

Anyway the ideas you posted make the game even more linear and will remove horses from the game probably.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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H.A.H.

Lance Carrier

Posts: 69

Joined: 26 Dec 2012, 23:51

Location: The Netherlands

Post 10 Mar 2013, 11:45

Re: Speeding up the early game

It does not make sense to build a bakery when you have no corn production yet. An unlocked building does not mean you have to build it. This argument can also be used for the baracks at this moment: it makes no sense to build a baracks without any weapon/armor production. Even though it is unlocked before any weapon/armor building is completed. As I noted earlier, this is due some missions in the campaign having armor and weapons in the storehouse: this is a map-maker decision.

Or: the two examples I provided are only explanatory. The map maker should be able to change the build unlocking order, as he/she is the only one who can decide what makes sense or not.
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Da Revolution

Knight

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Joined: 13 Apr 2012, 12:07

Location: Near the inn

Post 10 Mar 2013, 12:13

Re: Speeding up the early game

People love to build their barracks while building their first weaponproduction so both will be done at the same time and it's not unlocked before the weaponproduction (wooden weapons).

I agree with your last point that it's the choice of the mapmaker, but still I think there isn't much possible by changing unlock order except for the previous suggested one.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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FeyBart

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Knight

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Joined: 28 Dec 2011, 16:35

KaM Skill Level: Beginner

Location: Nutville, NL

Post 12 Mar 2013, 11:29

Re: Speeding up the early game

@FeyBart: And for that reason exactly we have a so-called "Town Tutorial" which explains everything step-by-step
I know that, but I thought the Town Tutorial wasn't considered good enough yet? Speaking of that, though, I would like to help improve it.
Nice coffee is always nice.

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