I'm out

[RiT4LiN]

I quit. I've played about 10/15 games the last couple of days. 1 was amazing with lewin and shit, the other was great but ended up in a disconnect and all the other games went like this.

http://imgur.com/UC4qP

I went for a fairly quick barracks to defend against this kind of crap. I build 2 towers in the middle of my base. But the guy just puts his militia in front of the opening before I can get my first militia out.

The only time I'll be playing again is with friends on LAN. Some poor faggots in this community are just to retarded to play a fun game of KaM. Lewin and Krom you guys are awesome for making this game, but an online multiplayer is just doesn't fit the balance design. I also don't believe in peace time since it'll become a race to get the biggest army before the peace time is over. I don't think an in game restriction can fix this problem except for locking some buildings until a certain time but then worker scouting would still be possible. Also early scouting with militia is imbalanced because the lack of fog of war. And the fact that a militia kills an unbuild building in one hit cause the player building it to lose all the resources he already payed for it. The game play should be based on mutual respect and the will to have a long fun game. Adding a ton of restrictions to compensate for the lack of well thought out multiplayer gamebalance will make the game less realistic and boring. Conclusion: the only way to have a fun game of knights and merchants is to have a set of players that are all playing to have a fun, long and straight up game. Online multiplayer with random people will never have this.

I quit, bye

I was extremely sad here

point of discussion: Can KaM be a fun multiplayer game with random people without written/unwritten rules added to the game.

[Shadaoe]

If eveyone agrees in a peace time you can sort this issue out, and they are some fair players out there !

[RiT4LiN]

If eveyone agrees in a peace time you can sort this issue out, and they are some fair players out there !

Yeah but you can never have a game without assholes. Plus the guy in this screenshot killed 3 players on his own. 1 rotten apple is enough for me to waste 20 minutes of my life.

And tons of people do not obey the peace time anyway.

[The Dark Lord]

Make more towers? I see you have 2 gold mines and 2 metallurgists', but apparantly you didn't have time to build one tiny puny little tower. If you have no defence at all you are asking for it. You can't expect random people not to attack you when they haven't agreed upon not attacking.

[Lewin]

I'm sorry to read this post, but I can understand your frustration. It made me realise how important it is to improve the multiplayer experience. To address this I will prioritise on:
- Forced peace time, the host sets the time in the lobby. During this time you cannot equip or command soldiers.
- Auto reconnect to solve the disconnections.

I would add file transfer to this list, but it would take too long to implement given that we are planning a new release within a month or so. Hopefully auto reconnect will make this less necessary.

I think this will greatly improve the issues, so please don't quit forever, try it again in the next patch. If you set the peace time high enough then you can have good defences which will stop even a massive army of militia from getting you. It should also make tactics other than militia rushing pay off, for example, one player might make 4 weapons workshops to get hundreds of militia, but if you focused on iron your crossbowmen and swordfighters can destroy them.
The whole militia rush thing is pretty stupid really because the game just becomes about who can make more militia in the first half hour. And towers do not really solve the problem as the enemy can usually find somewhere that is not covered by a tower and destroy your base from there.
But I believe that with enforced peace time and maybe a few other features you CAN have a good game with random people. That match you joined in was half random people, I think the reason it worked well was because I hosted it and enforced the rules.

That said, it's still important to find good people to play with. I haven't experienced what you described, because I always host my own games and ask people from I know to join them. Having a good host is important. A host should do the following:
- Organise and enforce peace time (while we don't have it implemented)
- When someone disconnects, save the game, return to the lobby, send the save file (upload it to some file sharing site) and reload the game. Disconnections are just a fact we have to live with for now, (but hopefully not for much longer) and this is the only "proper" way to handle them. Playing on will just leave unbalanced teams and a less enjoyable game. If people do not return, replace them with new people.
- Kick out players who are screwing around or being rude or not playing properly. Remember you can always save, go back to the lobby and find new players. In my experience new people are almost always willing to take someone's place.

So for now my advice is host your own games, use the chat on the website to find decent people to play with. And when you find a good player, ask if you can add them on ICQ/MSN/Skype/whatever to organise more games in the future.

Keep in mind that this game is very much in beta, so expect it to have flaws and be frustrating at times. But I do not want the game be that way in the long run so we will be actively addressing issues like this and taking feedback from the community.
Lewin.
P.S. You can add me on ICQ/MSN/Skype if you want and I will let you know when I'm hosting a game. I like having contact lists full of "nice" players who I can trust and ask to join our games. I try to make every game I organise like that one you joined in, although it was still the best I've had so far.

[CuDi]

Sounds like someone took the game to heart a little too much. I understand it's frustrating but throwing a fit and saying you're going to quit is a bit overly dramatic. Don't let those bastards get to you!

[Ben]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!




Just kidding. Really, though, I think that if you play on peace time, then you will find that the "first one to train the largest army before time runs out" is actually not true in every single case. In face, I've never played a peace game like that.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be back...

[Attyla]

RiT4LiN it could be me on yours screen. Sorry.
I just assumed that if people play with such short peace time (usualy 20-30min or even without) they want such battle. I was surprised becaouse during lan games I never used PT shorter than 1h10min. And I consider that PT is not time when you can't produce wempon and equip soldiers, but just don't fight - do not atack anyone. I agree that "rush game" is not so intersting and later I decided to do something (and not to rush) and found and played map Lake Wololo which is superb to defend. I think the solution is to to lower stocks at the start, especially gold and food (rush is possible only becaouse there is gold in storehouse to make recruits).

Tactics for such fast game. You build woodcuters, and only buildings to make axes. Don't train to many serfs and laborers, then: one farmer, two bakers, two miners, one metalurgist. The rest of gold you spent on recruits. Then you fight and later build other buildings. Don't be afraid, the village will not die forom hunger becaouse is small. With this tactics you can have about 20 militia within 20 minutes so it is number of stones in 4 towers.

But such game is boring ( when you do it more times). And you can see that without gold in storehouse it will not work (also could be no trees and small amount of wood in storehouse or more PT).

My nick is Attyla - most famous barbarians king in history, so you shouldn't be surprised that I play barbaric way , but I do not break the ruls. And I will become civilized when ruls will too. I proposed the very simple way to do it.

I cant agree with you in some points

I went for a fairly quick barracks

No you didn't, you build many other buildings, and you knew how short is peace time.

But the guy just puts his militia in front of the opening

You think that I should let you make solder to kill him, or to he kill my soliders? I always atck barracks in such a way. I repat, I NEVER atack before the end of peace time.


P S It is my first post (and unlucky in such a topick). I must thanks very much Lewin and Krom for their fantastic job.

[RiT4LiN]

RiT4LiN it could be me on yours screen. Sorry.
I just assumed that if people play with such short peace time (usualy 20-30min or even without) they want such battle. I was surprised becaouse during lan games I never used PT shorter than 1h10min. And I consider that PT is not time when you can't produce wempon and equip soldiers, but just don't fight - do not atack anyone. I agree that "rush game" is not so intersting and later I decided to do something (and not to rush) and found and played map Lake Wololo which is superb to defend. I think the solution is to to lower stocks at the start, especially gold and food (rush is possible only becaouse there is gold in storehouse to make recruits).

Tactics for such fast game. You build woodcuters, and only buildings to make axes. Don't train to many serfs and laborers, then: one farmer, two bakers, two miners, one metalurgist. The rest of gold you spent on recruits. Then you fight and later build other buildings. Don't be afraid, the village will not die forom hunger becaouse is small. With this tactics you can have about 20 militia within 20 minutes so it is number of stones in 4 towers.

But such game is boring ( when you do it more times). And you can see that without gold in storehouse it will not work (also could be no trees and small amount of wood in storehouse or more PT).

My nick is Attyla - most famous barbarians king in history, so you shouldn't be surprised that I play barbaric way , but I do not break the ruls. And I will become civilized when ruls will too. I proposed the very simple way to do it.

I cant agree with you in some points

I went for a fairly quick barracks

No you didn't, you build many other buildings, and you knew how short is peace time.

But the guy just puts his militia in front of the opening

You think that I should let you make solder to kill him, or to he kill my soliders? I always atck barracks in such a way. I repat, I NEVER atack before the end of peace time.


P S It is my first post (and unlucky in such a topick). I must thanks very much Lewin and Krom for their fantastic job.

It wasn't you But if you like quick attacking you should just check out StarCraft2. Its a fun competative game where the balance between economy and military is worked out mutch better in this game. The only fun i see in KaM is playing longer drawn out games and I just don't understand the fun of rushing. I feel there is no honor in winning in the first 10 minutes.

This game did not have peace time. I understand that a 20 or 30 minute peace time requires me to have an army and defence in 20 or 30 minutes. But since we didn't agree upon anything in this game, the goto build order seemed to be. weaponshop -> barracks -> 20 millitia.

The problem with the 1 militia in front of the barracks is that its retarded, that one guy can block a building, and to me it's a cheesy strat. You say: "You think that I should let you make solder to kill him, or to he kill my soliders?" and yes i think you do. You abuse a bug/flaw in the game to get a quick and easy win, and I just don't understand why. Again if you want to play to win, play StarCraft2. It has a great ladder and matchmaking system for high level competative play just GTFO my KaM.

And yes, I'd love to play the Northen province again on Saturday. But that's not random match making and thus not what i have problems with. I still love the game I just hate random matches. I?m just disappointed I can't come home from a long day of work an play 1 good game of KaM.

[RiT4LiN]

Make more towers? I see you have 2 gold mines and 2 metallurgists', but apparantly you didn't have time to build one tiny puny little tower. If you have no defence at all you are asking for it. You can't expect random people not to attack you when they haven't agreed upon not attacking.

Okay first if all I played this game in dutch when I was little. So I have ti guess the English names of the buildings since I haven't really given any attention to it.

A normal game of kam for ME looks like this: after the basic structures to unlock the others, I go for a couple of farms to get my mill and swine farm up. So I get about 3 farms first 1 mill 1 swine farm 1 baker 1 butcher. Before the multi player I used to get double this and my wine first.. But let me continue, I skip wine because its to greedy, after this tech I go to get my gold si I can make units. After I have my golf income I go up to 4-6 woodcuters and get my barracks for militia and bow men.

In this game I went gold first. I got two towers un my base to defend against rushes(ajustment 2). After this I went triple farm(maybe to greedy). After this I build barracks and weapon workshop. Right as my serf is about to deliver my first axe. About 10 to 15 minutes into the game this screenshot was taken. My 2 team mates didn't have anything yet, their towers were rendered useless too. And all their serves were getting killed by a singel militia.

You can say what you want but I rather stop playing at all then opening up less economic than this.

[The Dark Lord]

One tower next to the entrance, problem solved.

[Siegfried]

Sorry to point this out RiT4LiN, but from the screenshot and your writings we can see that your loss is clearly your own fault.

Don't blame others for your own mistakes! Never ever do!

Mistake 1:
The barracks is such an important building that you have to defend it. Build a tower next to it (but closer to the city center so it gets delivered with stone). If you don't defend your barracks, don't complain that it is defenseless.

Mistake 2:
Don't wait with training recruits until the bitter end. Always have some inside your barracks.

In original KaM, units also were able to leave a building on a diagonal path which makes it impossible to block it with one single person. I don't know the situation in the Remake.

Mistake 3:
Don't expect other players to obey an imaginary codex that exists only in your dreams. If you want to have some specific rules, than talk to others before. Arrange peace time, no militia rush or whatever. But talk to ohter people. Don't expect that they will play the way you like them to play.

If you want to have a codex that is accepted to a larger extend of the community, you'll have to sit down, write them down, discuss in here with players and reach a consense finally. That would be awesome!

Mistake 4:
You will find, that rushing - in the sense of pushing the opponent under pressure - is the most promising (and in many games the only) way to win a game. Again, people play to win, unless you specifically make a game only for relaxation issues. But others have to agree to that. If you don't agree to some rules, people will play without those rules.

Mistake 5:
Don't over-stress the name-calling. The way you randomly calll other players assholes and faggots give me the impression, that this terms fit to you as well.
Those insults are the reasons why communities break and people start to hate each other. What's the point in insulting people in a public forum with these words. Have a little bit of respect.

If insults are something, that you use that easy and blaming others is no problem for you, then please stay away forever!

If you see, that there needs to be a trade-off and eventually also you will have to compromise and if you see, that you have to be kind to others, then please come back. I like your attitude, because I also like to play for relaxation purposes most of the time, so I'd like to play a match with or against you.

[Siegfried]

Okay first if all I played this game in dutch when I was little. So I have ti guess the English names of the buildings since I haven't really given any attention to it.

I have the same problem most of the times, but we're lucky that there are some websites out there:
Litude's characters
Litude's buildings

[RiT4LiN]

Sorry to point this out RiT4LiN, but from the screenshot and your writings we can see that your loss is clearly your own fault.

True I'm just stating I'm not having fun when the game is played this way. There are clearly better games for competitive play. The only reason this game if fun is for nostalgic reasons and its incredibly complex economy for longer games. Killing me in this situation is just as honorable as Mohammed ali beating a 3y/o.

Don't blame others for your own mistakes! Never ever do!

Mistake 1:
The barracks is such an important building that you have to defend it. Build a tower next to it (but closer to the city center so it gets delivered with stone). If you don't defend your barracks, don't complain that it is defenseless.

The building just finished for one second. You are suggesting I can only build a building after i have a defensive structure guarding it. I'm also not saying there is no way to win, i'm saying the way to win is ugly.

Mistake 2:
Don't wait with training recruits until the bitter end. Always have some inside your barracks.

It just finished

In original KaM, units also were able to leave a building on a diagonal path which makes it impossible to block it with one single person. I don't know the situation in the Remake.

I'm specificly stating that the origional game is bad and imbalanced, not this remake.

Mistake 3:
Don't expect other players to obey an imaginary codex that exists only in your dreams. If you want to have some specific rules, than talk to others before. Arrange peace time, no militia rush or whatever. But talk to ohter people. Don't expect that they will play the way you like them to play.

Well I do, that's why I resign from random matches

If you want to have a codex that is accepted to a larger extend of the community, you'll have to sit down, write them down, discuss in here with players and reach a consense finally. That would be awesome!

Will do

Mistake 4:
You will find, that rushing - in the sense of pushing the opponent under pressure - is the most promising (and in many games the only) way to win a game. Again, people play to win, unless you specifically make a game only for relaxation issues. But others have to agree to that. If you don't agree to some rules, people will play without those rules.

I play to win, but i do not play to get a quick and easy win. Plus getting millitia early is an "all in" move. If it doesn't win you the game directly you are behind someone who did not go for barracks first. I'm stating that i do not think that all in builds fit the multiplayer.

Its allin because:

You have no economy to fall back on.

You wasted a lot of gold so you have to tech to gold before anything else because and that sets you behind further

Because of the workshop you waste all your initial wood and you'll have a hard time getting wood for structures later

Mistake 5:
Don't over-stress the name-calling. The way you randomly calll other players assholes and faggots give me the impression, that this terms fit to you as well.
Those insults are the reasons why communities break and people start to hate each other. What's the point in insulting people in a public forum with these words. Have a little bit of respect.

If insults are something, that you use that easy and blaming others is no problem for you, then please stay away forever!

If you see, that there needs to be a trade-off and eventually also you will have to compromise and if you see, that you have to be kind to others, then please come back. I like your attitude, because I also like to play for relaxation purposes most of the time, so I'd like to play a match with or against you.

You are right. I AM an a*sho*e The guy that killed me in this screenshot is a guy I had a realy fun conversation with (while exchanging tons of <3's). So I felt realy cheated when he killed 3 people on his own. Excuse my harsh language.

My exact point is that its

[RiT4LiN]

Oh i don't think that anyone cares I "leave". Because first of all I wont leave, I just refrain from playing with random people. I wanted to open up the discussion about KaM as an online game in general...

So let me ask this question: Is KaM TSK a game that fits online multiplayer? I personally think the game has huge imbalances and is poorly designed and has to rely on written or unwritten agreements between players such as a peace time.