Peace time and food reserves

[simpelekees]

I love a decent strategy game. I have actually only played the Company of Heroes series after I left Zero Hour and tried to compete in the more competitive sense...not the 4v4 games, but more or less 1v1 and 2v2. Therefore I prefer no rules, no idiotic build ups and clashes of huge armies, but a basic, micro-intensive game of macro and micro coming together.

K&M mostly does not seem to offer this. This is partly because of it's style, but also because of what people seem to like:
Pros (or what is called, a TS player) prefer 60 min PT, fun players prefer 90-120 mins on Cursed Ravine.

Of course I've thus practiced some 60 min PT 1v1 and 2v2s. But as to no avail, KAM will not be CoH or Zero Hour. Yet I discovered it is a lot of fun to macro manage your food/weapon economy to perfection before you start flanking and scouting for the opponent his army. Thus I find peace now in 60 min PT.

I found that most games that are played, are on maps that are really decent (open, room for flanks and economy annoyance etc.) but they lack one important thing for me

1. Mostly a Rush strategy is applied, avoiding any bread or wine production and going for a <30 min iron or a really quick farm intensive leather production. They are really effective and allow a player to spit out 60-70 soldiers (30 iron, 40 leather soldiers) and only after the PT is over, they need extra bread or wine to complement their food-deficiency. This is what makes it less fun to me.

The whole food economy aspect of the game is left out for the majority. I therefore would like to hear your opinion about this fact. Do you also prefer 60 min Golden Cliffs, with plenty of food to survive with solely weapon production untill PT is over? Or do you like the idea of decreased food start quantity? I'd suggest the quantities in ...
Dead Rivers Total: 100 food
25 Bread
40 Wine
10 Sausage
25 Fish

The rest of the maps have huge quantities of food...Here are a couple of examples of maps I like, yet have too large quantities imo. Cursed Ravine is added as a contrast.

Golden Cliffs Total: 140
35 Bread
60 Wine
15 Sausage
30 Fish
Grassland Clash Total: 185
50 Bread
60 Wine
40 Sausage
35 Fish
Lost in the Sand Total: 180
40 Bread
60 Wine
30 Sausage
50 Fish
Valley of Equilibrium Total: 210
55 Bread
75 Wine
40 Sausage
40 Fish
Cursed Ravine Total: 140
35 Bread
60 WIne
15 Sausage
30 Fish

[dicsoupcan]

actually it is funny you mention that, i perosnally think that due to the efficiency/unlock order patches people are having an easier time building a city, which in turn causes maps to be easier. i am making a 4 vs 4 map using lower starting resources (40 wine 30 bread 20 fish 10 sausages, slightly worse then dead rivers since bread restores less then fish does), making it more difficult to get to your ores and also making it more difficult to farm due to unfarmable snow. i actual;ly think people will not like the decreased quantity of food, but i will experiment with it anyway.

i actually considered requesting lowering the hunger bar from 45 minutes to 40 minutes to compensate for the efficiency patches and making food more important again but never did it.

[simpelekees]

actually it is funny you mention that, i perosnally think that due to the efficiency/unlock order patches people are having an easier time building a city, which in turn causes maps to be easier. i am making a 4 vs 4 map using lower starting resources (40 wine 30 bread 20 fish 10 sausages, slightly worse then dead rivers since bread restores less then fish does), making it more difficult to get to your ores and also making it more difficult to farm due to unfarmable snow. i actual;ly think people will not like the decreased quantity of food, but i will experiment with it anyway.

i actually considered requesting lowering the hunger bar from 45 minutes to 40 minutes to compensate for the efficiency patches and making food more important again but never did it.

Nice to see a positive respons. What do you mean with the Hunger bar from 45 -> 40?

[dicsoupcan]

right now it takes 45 minutes to get the hunger bar from 100% to 0%(starved to death). this is an original tpr/tsk value. i would like to see that set to 40 minutes because in comparison to tpr it is way easier to build/ get food due to efficiency patches in order to make food more important and reduce the rush army strategies.

[simpelekees]

right now it takes 45 minutes to get the hunger bar from 100% to 0%(starved to death). this is an original tpr/tsk value. i would like to see that set to 40 minutes because in comparison to tpr it is way easier to build/ get food due to efficiency patches in order to make food more important and reduce the rush army strategies.

I like that idea.

[Ben]

I don't think your findings are correct. Yes, most maps have large starting food, but I often see players making wine before peacetime is over. Bread I see being made almost every game. The only strategy you seem to have studied is the sword+bow strategy, which is becoming inferior as more and more players are getting better at fielding knights.

If you want to see players making bread before pigs, then giving less food would help towards that goal. But players should have the option to go pigs first if they want. I think the current food "standard" supports both; although clearly leaning in the "pigs first" strategy.

Making units get hungry faster is not the solution. You're barking at the wrong tree imo. The new build order makes wood easier; not necessarily better. Better solution would be to take -10 timber and stone from storehouse (so players start with 40 timber and 50 stone).

[dicsoupcan]

well i with the easier food production patches i actually meant that the same old formula making enough food to barely support your city got easier thus focussing on the military aspect more then the economic one and the economic one is the main focus of the original kam. be able to support yourself first, then vanquish any enemy. . this is why i indeed made a map (the horrible TTE) with less timber slightly less gold and low starting food but i think that due to a combination of the map design and the low starting resources no one liked it. that is also why i think that my new mp map will be never played either. i just think that food, the engine of the city should be more important and scale a bit more with the efficiency/unlock order patches.

[thunder]

That 45-->40 isnt a bad idea. Remember the farms are working on very effective now. Making knights are easier then before. But this decreasing is a good idea for fighting with campers. The most common reason to start to attack in a campy situation is the hunry army.
Maybe could be the best: the soilders come out from the barrack with full hungry level and after 30 mins needs to feed him./ him,because she isnt there;p/.
And what about the feeded unit get back his lost health points? As i see this is also part of the most strategy games.get back the healthy poi.ts somehow. Medicines,foods,gold,priests,hospitals...etc. or is this programmed in kam also?:S

[simpelekees]

I don't think your findings are correct. Yes, most maps have large starting food, but I often see players making wine before peacetime is over. Bread I see being made almost every game. The only strategy you seem to have studied is the sword+bow strategy, which is becoming inferior as more and more players are getting better at fielding knights.

If you want to see players making bread before pigs, then giving less food would help towards that goal. But players should have the option to go pigs first if they want. I think the current food "standard" supports both; although clearly leaning in the "pigs first" strategy.

Making units get hungry faster is not the solution. You're barking at the wrong tree imo. The new build order makes wood easier; not necessarily better. Better solution would be to take -10 timber and stone from storehouse (so players start with 40 timber and 50 stone).

Can you show me such a replay?

[dicsoupcan]

thunder the soldiers regenerate health points by itself, every 30 seconds 1 point if i recall correctly