mission 20 tsk

[philm48]

how can i get past the first 5 minutes
philm

[Bence791]

If you took a bit of time, you could have found it. I explained it here:
http://knightsandmerchants.net/forum/vi ... f=3&t=1936

[Kingpin]

Hi.
I have the same problem with the KAM Remake (newest version + Hotfix).

I have no idea how to survive the first battle in Mission 20.
Tried everything but there are too many knights following the first waves.

[pawel95]

I am fixing that mission right now. Please have some patience Xd after testing from me and some other players, i will upload the fixed version here.

Btw! Its not impossible to win fhat mission in the remake, but its really much harder than in the original game.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1254&start=15#p33784

[cmowla]

I apologize if I am responding to this thread too late (I just noticed it today), but I just played the initial battle of mission 20, and it's not really that hard.

After a few tries, I ended with 13 barbarians, 8 sword fighters, 5 pikemen, and 3 knight...that's after I took out the western town (as I usually do). In addition, my play wasn't perfect, so there's room for improvement. I didn't use saves either.

Why does it need fixing, pawel95?

Mission 20 (Initial Battle + Western Town).zip

[pawel95]

Haha why, you are asking? That isn't a topic for "is it winable and post replays" I said alread it isn't impossible to win it.

So back to your why? :

Look at original tsk20 and compare it to the remake tsk 20. Just look that in the remake also 3 single black knights (wihout a group) is attacking you, out of that, you can see that the ai isn't working well
I don't want a 1by1 mission to the original game, and it's good that the map is hard. However like you can see many people have problems, not including me. Btw a good hard mission should be hard the whole time, up to here the initial attack is just completely bugged, but when you win that, the rest of the mission is just quite easy.

Btw i fixed nearly all missions in tpr. Mostly it wasn't too hard also there, but often the ai behaves bad and strange, like in tsk 20 remake, that wrong troops are attacking you, while others don't attack you, but run to their base. Also knights standing in front of your house and doing nothing shows, that sth is wrong.

[cmowla]

(Second half of post)

Oh, okay.

Haha why, you are asking?

Because based on the Kingpin's post and your response to it, "I am fixing that mission right now", one can only conclude that the fix you are making is to make the initial battle easier. Also, I don't know of any rule that says you can't post a replay in a specific forum, especially if it's only purpose is to prove a point relative to the subject being discussed.

The main purpose of my replay wasn't to prove that it's beatable (because I did read that you said it was), but that it was easily beatable...hence not needing fixes to make easier.

[Lewin]

We would prefer to keep the difficulty similar to the original game, which was fairly well balanced (progressively more difficult as the campaign progresses). The campaigns should not be a challenge for an experience KaM player, so saying it's easily beatable is not really relevant when you are a highly experienced player. Somebody can make a "hardcore version" of the campaigns for experienced players, but we want to keep the default campaigns accessible for newbies like they were in the original game.

Also, the fixes Pawel is making for us go beyond just changing the difficulty. There are missions where the AI does not behave the way it is supposed to due to differences between the Remake and the original game. If these bugs can be easily fixed from the mission script Pawel can make the fix himself, but even if these bugs are in the engine not the script, if they are investigated we can try to fix them.

[cmowla]

Hi Lewin,
First of all I would like to formally thank you and the other developers for making the remake. It's wonderful, and I am considering donating because this is truly amazing!

For a brief moment, let's forget that I am a highly experienced player.

Yesterday I was curious to see just how "easy" mission 20 was in r5503 compared to the original game, so I started over, and this time within the first 25 minutes, with saves (and not that many), I managed to take out both the west and east villages and still have 3 pikemen, 4 sword fighters, and 2 knight (and my play wasn't perfect, trust me).

With the original game, I couldn't do this so easily because my tactic for taking out the east and west villages in r5503 was to send a single knight to swing at a crossbowman in the east and west villages and then run to "draw the ants out of the pile". The fact that knights can withstand more arrows in r5503 is more of a help than a hurt, and thus that alone has made mission 20 signifantly easier, as I only had to fight the two north villages...I finished the mission in a little over 3 hours...and I was really taking my time/having fun.

Also, since you and the other developers made the remake, the villages and serfs are much more efficient now, and that alone makes the game significantly easier (it makes up even for the worst constructed villages, some of which I have seen in some MP replays) and allows you to finish the missions faster when compared to the original game.

Lastly, this is my rank of building mission difficulty in TSK based on all of the tricks I have learned on my own...it's out of order (11 being the most difficult, 2 being the easiest). So to me, it's never been ordered well, if that is what you all are genuinely concerned about.

(For convenience, here is the list of all building missions in TSK: 1 2 4 5 7 8 9 11 12 14 15 16 18 20.)

(This ordered list assumes that the human player can put stress aside and strictly focus on pure strategy and the actual difficulty of the game, intelligence of the AI, etc.)

11
12
7
8
15
20
4
9
16
5
14
1
18
2

However, I believe the battle missions are in a good order (and they are much better designed than the fighting missions in TPR).

[Lewin]

I think inexperienced players will play very differently to you, so they will find different missions harder than others. I know when I first played the campaigns I didn't really understand a lot of things about the game and my cities were all very inefficient and slow. I also wasn't very good at fighting the AI and lost a lot more soldiers in battles than I do now. Experienced players and newbies will find different missions difficult because of different timings and strategies (a newbie might not attack the AI for 2 hours while he builds his village, meaning they will have a different battle when they fight the AI).

However I agree that villages are now more efficient so a slight increase in difficulty might be warranted. However, that difficulty increase should only effect the late-game since the initial battles are not changed by village efficiency.

And of course our balance changes like shields etc. have an impact on singleplayer, we need to rebalance them based on that (especially in missions where ranged units are very important)

[pawel95]

Ok I added a 7th Player now(IN original game there were 6 players in total) and fixed all strating attacks from the AI Now I just have to see, if the AI is agressive enough and attacks the human player after a while, like he did in the original game.

[pawel95]

So finally. I finished the TSK 20 fix today Those players, that wanna help me testing it, specialy those guys, for that the mission was unwinable, write me please a personal message here and I will send you the fixed version. It´s now nearly 1by1 to the original game, and I´m really happy about the results. Indeed like 80% of the Starting attack was bugged, some knights attacked you instead of your ally.

I also improved the mission with some "attaack storehosue" commands, instead of simple "go to" command, because in original tsk, when you don´t defend against the middle wave, most soldiers won´t attack your storehosue, but only stand there

When there won´t be any "bugs" in it, I will send that version to Lewin, so he can add it in the next Remake Version.


After there should be no problems or bugs, and I wanna have some time again, I wanna also watch the balance and difficulty of that map very closely. However I think that this map doesn´t need any bigger changements. Why you ask me? Well like 40% of troops of the enemy are Knights in the Last and Final Mission of that epic game Like you should heard already, they got a little boost against bowmen and xbows and you really see a difference to tsk in the result of dead people on your side That´s why I think, it should be nearly as hard or even harder(well mass pikes could solve that problem) as in the original game.

Pawel95

[Vatrix]

My replay:

TSK20.rar

[pawel95]

My replay:

TSK20.rar

Thank you for your feedback via pn and that replay.

I am surprised that in your 5 hours, the middle black guy didnt attacked you, have to rewatch the code.

[pawel95]

Hey Guys, I would just need your help. Do you know if in original TSK those xbows also looked in that direction, like they do in the Remake? It doesn´t look well for me, but maybe I just remember wrong and it should be like a defence, when the human player is already in their city? Would be nice if someone could tell me: