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Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 09:33
by Esthlos
Thought I read something similar somewhere in this forum, but can't find it...
(EDIT: I think I found it:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1608&p=27070&hilit ... wer#p27070)
Anyway: what about adding a tower that, instead of throwing lethal short-range boulders, throws pebbles (those stones the Rogue throws)?
It would have a nice range, but would be weaker than Bowmen's arrows, it would be cheap and fast to build but frail and have less attack speed than Bowmen and Crossbowmen.
Definitely, it would be worthless lategame: one bowman would be cheaper, more powerful and not much easier to slain. Yet, it would be able to take out little militia forces without problems, thus being a defensive tool against rushes, thus making it possible to remove the peacetime.
Of course, you would build it right next to your first buildings... its slow attack speed means that a few Militia can run past a line of these without many problems: a defensive line made with these wouldn't be useful unless paired with your own Militia, and would still require time and stone for the road.
To sum it up, its usefulness would be limited to the early game as a counter for rushes: it would be too weak and frail to stand a chance against actual attacking armies and would be an hinderance during sieges (4 Bowmen occuping its space would contribute way more), but would be a good defence agains rushes.
What do you think about this?
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 19:24
by Ben
Thought I read something similar somewhere in this forum, but can't find it...
(EDIT: I think I found it:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1608&p=27070&hilit ... wer#p27070)
Anyway: what about adding a tower that, instead of throwing lethal short-range boulders, throws pebbles (those stones the Rogue throws)?
It would have a nice range, but would be weaker than Bowmen's arrows, it would be cheap and fast to build but frail and have less attack speed than Bowmen and Crossbowmen.
Definitely, it would be worthless lategame: one bowman would be cheaper, more powerful and not much easier to slain. Yet, it would be able to take out little militia forces without problems, thus being a defensive tool against rushes, thus making it possible to remove the peacetime.
Of course, you would build it right next to your first buildings... its slow attack speed means that a few Militia can run past a line of these without many problems: a defensive line made with these wouldn't be useful unless paired with your own Militia, and would still require time and stone for the road.
To sum it up, its usefulness would be limited to the early game as a counter for rushes: it would be too weak and frail to stand a chance against actual attacking armies and would be an hinderance during sieges (4 Bowmen occuping its space would contribute way more), but would be a good defence against rushes.
What do you think about this?
It's been suggested before. My proposal was to add a defence that your laborers could build without having a road connected. Of course, there would need to be some kind of counter for this.
But is it really needed? Has anyone ever actually tried playing a 10pt game where they actually tried using regular towers? If you planned your base right, you'd be able to fit many towers in it. I think normal towers should be tested more before any crazy ideas like this get implemented
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 19:51
by Shadaoe
I think the current towers can't be effective against a rush. They're too long to do and too costly for the early game. It was a pain to play the game back when peacetime wasn't implemented because you couldn't counter one single militia (except on some maps) and you just died against one soldier.
Although feel free to prove me wrong, if the current towers can counter a rush and you show me how, I'll be glad to support a reduction-deletion of PT !
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 20:24
by Ben
Towers are costly early-game (3 timber, 7 stone!) But I don't think it's impossible. You certainly can't protect everything, but that's the beauty of it! We'll have raids in KaM for the first time. Farmers and woodcutters will be picked off while your storehouse and barack have towers to protect against the "1 militia" exploit.
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 20:50
by Esthlos
Towers are costly early-game (3 timber, 7 stone!) But I don't think it's impossible. You certainly can't protect everything, but that's the beauty of it! We'll have raids in KaM for the first time. Farmers and woodcutters will be picked off while your storehouse and barack have towers to protect against the "1 militia" exploit.
It's certainly worth a shot, to try if it's doable or exploitable...
(In my opinion it's the latter: you micro your militia, make the tower waste stone, go manage your town, back to your militia, repeat, et voilà! Your enemy needs more stone, and isn't building as fast as he/she should, while you are.
If instead you have more than one militia, you use one to make the tower waste its stone, then block its entrance and roam the enemy town at will.)
Still, it's definitely worth a try...
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 21:32
by Shadaoe
Ben : That'd be awesome to have such a gameplay ! I wonder though wether one can survive after losing early woodcutters or/and farmers, it needs to be balanced between worthwile rushes and too punitive lose of citizen.
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2013, 22:34
by Nissarin
I think you're looking at it backwards, there is a counter to early game rushes, it's called PT..
...but assuming you still want to play games without pt, maybe some wooden structure with bowmen (100 hp, 2 wood, 1 stone, 1 bow, 1 recruit, ~xbow fire rate, no ammo needed) ?
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2013, 04:00
by Ben
I think you're looking at it backwards, there is a counter to early game rushes, it's called PT..
This must be in the top five of useless contributions on this forum. Seriously, Nissarin? The reasoning behind these topics is to come up with a way to play without peacetime. Why, then, would peacetime be any part of the solution?
In my opinion, peacetime is not ideal for gameplay. Although it is nice for KaM's building mechanics (sole building for one hour can be very enjoyable!), it would be very nice to have an option for games that last about 45 minutes tops.
(In my opinion it's the latter: you micro your militia, make the tower waste stone, go manage your town, back to your militia, repeat, et voilà! Your enemy needs more stone, and isn't building as fast as he/she should, while you are.
Have you tried using micro to remove towers' stones in the Remake yet? It is different than in TSK/TPR in that micro is much less effective. I don't understand it very well, but it seems as though you can increase your chances of survival by moving away from a stone once it has been thrown, but sometimes it seems as though it's just as likely to kill.
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2013, 10:52
by The Dark Lord
There is another aspect to consider: the map. We always complain about a map being too campy; but that might be a good thing if you want to play without or with very low pt.
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2013, 12:03
by Nissarin
This must be in the top five of useless contributions on this forum. Seriously, Nissarin? The reasoning behind these topics is to come up with a way to play without peacetime. Why, then, would peacetime be any part of the solution?
I realize that, hence the second part of the sentence but my point is, PT was introduced in order to get rid off mindless early game mili/tower spam and now you're looking for a way to remove it, talk about useless contributions.. and yeah, I don't think KaM is suited to such style of gameplay (the economy is just to complex, you can't control individual units and "workers" can't defend themselves, it's not SC2). You want to play without PT - do not introduce otherwise useless additions to the game and just play on maps where you can defend yourself (big, easy to defend, preferably with some starting troops and/or towers).
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2013, 12:02
by Esthlos
(In my opinion it's the latter: you micro your militia, make the tower waste stone, go manage your town, back to your militia, repeat, et voilà! Your enemy needs more stone, and isn't building as fast as he/she should, while you are.
Have you tried using micro to remove towers' stones in the Remake yet? It is different than in TSK/TPR in that micro is much less effective. I don't understand it very well, but it seems as though you can increase your chances of survival by moving away from a stone once it has been thrown, but sometimes it seems as though it's just as likely to kill.
Just tried: test map, one tower+school+storehouse+inn, gave myself 5 Militia, used them 1 at a time.
Tried and reloaded the map 5 times, the most I managed to do is making the Tower waste 8 stones. Always lost all the Militia, was never able to actually get one in front of the Tower's entrance. In TSK it was easier!
EDIT: Better results when trying to use more than one at a time, but still...
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2013, 20:44
by Menszu
Well, nice to see someone bringing it up from the dead. I myself forget about this post and now as I read it i really like my own ideas
And I don't mean only archer/rouge tower but also the rest of the cool stuff:
- Shooting Fortress.
- My solution to very specialized siege engines.
- Town hall working only when the enemy is in 8 tiles away from your buildings.
There was also another idea I can't find in this topic after quick review - knights going out of the Storehouse/Fortress when the city is in danger - enemy closer than ~8 tiles from your buildings. Something like a liege lord retainers, that just arrived there together with the builders of the first sotrehouse so they are not out of nowhere. 6 of those can easly eradicate any militia rush, but stand no chance in city fighting against regular attack. They would regenerate slowly at rate ... let's say one per 3 minutes.
Needless to say they would go automaticly back to the building they orginated from if the danger is no more within 8 tiles fromt the city buildings.
In fact when we talk of automatization they might be AI controlled completly, just charging straight foward the danger, still fair enough against militia, but not so well against miliatia spam and 3 cheap lances.
Re: Rogue tower and peacetime?
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2013, 14:17
by WhiteWolf
Maybe a better solutions to not overpower the new idea of this 'roque' tower is to forbid building these things close to each other ? Like normal buildings need 1 tile between each other the towers need 5 tiles between each other ? To not mess up any already existing campaign maps this could be implemented as: "A tower can not be build within 5 tiles range of another tower but, a tower can exist within this range"
Might put the tower back in its role as 'support' and not 'main defense' (tower spam will be impossible)
Normal tower does 4 HP on direct hit, the roque tower could do 1 HP on hit and -1 tile range (to not overpower the tower but to still counter the militia rush) ?
Another possibility is to limit the amount of towers that can be build like "only 5 towers per player can exist in the map" (don't know how scripting exactly works but fascinated scriptwriters could try something like that)
yes, no ?