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New Town Hall Idea

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Ben

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Post 28 May 2013, 16:07

Re: New Town Hall Idea

We could just play Global Conquest instead. There's an idea :P

If people wants to put work into this proposed mod to KaM, I won't stop them, but this better not be made to patch the official Remake release.
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pawel95

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Post 28 May 2013, 18:01

Re: New Town Hall Idea

Nah come on guys. Mod??? REALLY?? So each player in a 4vs4 would need a mod to play the map? Good luck. Better to make it as "special maps" for some recent maps or just find an idea that every tpr player would like it more or less, but wouldn't have any disadvantage not to use it. Like I said, I think the idea is just nice to test the thing, that you can only !RENT! your troops(like it was in the middleage in reality) and after some minutes the "op" barbs go back to the townhall. The gold thingi could be like the original now, because it wouldn't be cheap of give an avantage anymore when you must pay like 100 gold chests for 20 barbs for 10-20 min. The enemy can also win without the townhall and can give the gold to better things.
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H.A.H.

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Post 28 May 2013, 18:27

Re: New Town Hall Idea

Krom, can you please describe more what you think my idea was? I've reread your original reaction and you mention a "MMO", and the second post "login 2 hours 2 times for 3 hours). I didn't think of this at all, but it is very interesting!
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Krom

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Post 29 May 2013, 05:32

Re: New Town Hall Idea

When I first read your idea I thought you had a big picture, where TownHall is just a little piece in it. I guess my vision of it was that you suggest a GlobalConquest kind of game, with higher level tactics on a world map, controlled by clans. Where clan would have a certain territory and attack nearby settlements controlled by AI or other players/clans. When attacking a territory opponent clan would have e.g. 5min to either accept the fight (thats usual MP as we play it now), or let AI do it (thats coop MP maps we have now). Also AI (barbarians) would attack bigger clans at periods of time to prevent overgrowth of territory that the clan owns, then the clan could defend it (coop MP) or ignore it (results computed by AI).

There are many blank spots in this idea (how to preserve players towns between fights, how to scale the game between 10 and 1000 players, restore resources, etc)
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H.A.H.

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Post 29 May 2013, 13:49

Re: New Town Hall Idea

I get your idea. However this is not what I originally meant with the townhall. The townhall idea can more be regarded as an extension that can be enabled in a mission script, and voilá, regions of influence are visible.

However, as I read your description, I do have another idea in my sleeve; this is not related to KaM Remake, and is a whole different scale idea. But I always like the games in which different levels are blended with each other. As you describe two very distinct modes, one regarding the building and fighting, the other regarding territory and AI: these modes are not blended. E.g., the territory 'game' has completely different mechanics than the original game, which is repeated and played several times and instantiated for each conquest played in the territory game.

Imagine a more role-playing-like game. Every beginning player who is introduced to the World of Knights and Merchants (don't mind my blatantly stolen name from World of Warcraft), starts out as a lowest ranking Serf: i.e. after login, the player walks out of the school and starts his game career. Being a serf is very simple: you will have to carry goods from one place to the other, earning some fine wages by doing so. Why would you need these wages? Well, easy! To retrain yourself, or to buy food (central aspect of the game), you need to have some kind of currency. If your character gets hungry, get to the nearest Inn and buy some food, if there is any. Hell, you could even starve to death (if there is not enough food to buy, or you don't have enough money). So who is the one making sure that there are enough farms, inns, etc. so nobody dies of food? Well, actually, the same player!

Every city has a town hall, and in there, it is possible to become elected into different functions (council or court). Election is a matter of being voted by the other candidates. When you are elected as a council, it is possible to zoom out and view the map as KaM is used to. You may place building plans, road plans, fields. You may also issue deconstruction, removing a road, or generally any planning activity. These actions are reviewed by other council members, and a plan needs be accepted by at least three people before it is performed. Each function also has specific responsibilities: for instance, the Surveyor is the only member that can view building progress. Those different functions are too specific to mention now.

Okay, let's get back to retraining in the schools: being a serf earns great money, there is always something to do and it helps you learn the city know well. The next step in your career is retraining to become a builder. After the initial cost of retraining, a player may always switch between roles. How do the city governors make sure there will not be too many serfs, or too many builders? But at the same time ensure there is not too few of them either? It's simple: serfs are the only profession that will be taken by AI players, if there are too few real players. On the other hand, remember the wages players received for their duty? These wages will get adjusted based on the number of players that are performing the job, using the demand-supply principle from economics: if there are too few builders, the wages for these jobs increase enormously, giving an incentive to more players to become a builder. If there are too many serfs in the city, the wages are reduced, letting players find other, better paying, jobs.

Building permits. The governors can not only choose where to build something, but also how it operates. The government can sell or rent out their industry buildings, or can allow everybody to make use of the facility at a fair price. Either way: industry buildings generate income, be it at different scales. The storehouse is another great tool for governors to control their supplies. Same principle for amount of jobs is applied to the storehouse and the economy of goods: the amount of goods required in the economy can be controlled by adjusting selling price.

Let's explain selling price and industry buildings in general. What if you retrain yourself to become a woodcutter or a stonemason. Then, you need an industry building before you can do your duty. Either way, the governors set their buildings for rent (to one individual), or for general use. In the latter case, it's easy: pick any unoccupied industry building and start working. In the former case, the renter of the building can hire other people and pay for their activity. However, any good you produce is owned by the building renter, not by you. So in the case you work at a general use building, and for instance, you cut down a tree, and return to the lumberjack shack, and plant back a tree, you earn one log by doing so.

What was that point on the storehouse again? Right, prices for goods. The storehouse is actually a big place for people (renters or freelancers): they can sell their goods to the government for some adjusted price according to their demand. Now, the real fun is in the economy: sometimes you need a log to process it into planks. Sometimes you need planks to create weapons, etc. etc. etc. People can buy goods from the storehouse to create a new good (including labor), which then gets sold back to the storehouse! However, this costs quite some time: so it is also possible as a player that you sell and buy directly from the industry buildings, which reduces the overhead of bringing goods to the storehouse, and sometimes may be cheaper too.

Now to wrap this story up, use your imagination to extend this idea to other industries. The main idea is that players are performing the role of each citizen in a city of Knights and Merchants. Then players can earn more influence by, in order of importance: first rent an industry building and run a smooth business, then own that building, then own several buildings in the same industry chain, then get elected as in city council, then extend the region and build more sustainable city, get appointed as mayor. And then there's the point of fighting: people need to buy their own outfit. A general determines the composition of his army by changing the wages for each class. Now, in the game in general, to die is to lose your equipment, but not the money you as a player has earned. Destroying buildings, on the other hand, actually destroys content too, but again not the money involved.

And now add this whole idea with a sauce of the new Town Hall idea, alike how Krom just described it: there are two or three or four kingdoms, the land around the capital has less and less useful resources (except for renewable), so expansion is of the essence. While the these kingdoms do this at the same time, they have to conquer land in order to become the strongest. The conquered land is fully player controlled, capitals are maintained by moderators. There is a notion of a king, but nobody can get elected as one (that would be strange).

Reference:
Medieval political structure
Image
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Krom

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Post 29 May 2013, 14:01

Re: New Town Hall Idea

I'm not sure player will find it interesting to carry wares between houses for an hour or so to become a builder, without choice of the "quest". Sounds more like a set of minigames rather than an RPG.

When WOW was made it did based on Warcraft settings, but the gameplay was largely extended. Blizzard did not offered players to become serfs, instead they took RPG, made it MMO and placed the player into Warcraft settings.
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Bence791

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Post 29 May 2013, 14:04

Re: New Town Hall Idea

Hell why don't you make your own game? The first proposal wasn't really related to the Remake either but other RTS games...
Knights and Merchants is a Real Time Strategy game (RTS), not a role-playing one. And actually, I don't think anyone would enjoy going along streets to carry wares while being a serf.
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H.A.H.

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Post 29 May 2013, 14:19

Re: New Town Hall Idea

Sure, good thing about ideas is that they are easy to produce and easy to dismiss.

I think that this RPG-ish (with boring serf mode) might give a different perspective on the economy simulation side of KaM Remake. It might profit to consider giving every citizen a virtual bag of money: increase by doing work, decrease by eating. And serfs may pick jobs by "how can I earn the most money, while doing the least amount of work." Considering the RPG element, use your reasoning as if you are the serf, might also explain some odd behavior or introduce other better improvements.

It is not at all my intention to build this previous "game" at this point. Why would I create a game from scratch if I can also enjoy playing and improving another game?
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Siegfried

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Post 29 May 2013, 14:21

Re: New Town Hall Idea

I really don't understand the negative reactions. It's an idea and he offered to try it.

@H.A.H.
I think I don't really get the idea how this should work out. Is it mean to be real-time? It sounds like it could easily take many hours to finish.

Is it meant to be like a MMORPG, so you have a server that does all the calculations? Just like some famous browser games do. But then, will you starve if you don't find time to log on for two or three days?

I see the whole concept and I see some potential in it. But I fail to see a game mode in there. Please write more about your idea.
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H.A.H.

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Post 29 May 2013, 16:20

Re: New Town Hall Idea

@Siegfriend, the last post was a more detailed version of something that I think Krom would find interesting to hear about. I think indeed that this should be considered a different game, not so much related to KaM at all.

The original topic of this thread is Townhall Idea. Let's continue on that. It is a scripted modification for certain maps playable on KaM Remake. It is intended for those who love long games and not just 'build-fight-game over', which is a different play style.

These maps are designed for a free-for-all game: say four players in each corner, all connected to a huge area in the middle. Or even imagine a more geographically realistic map, where players more located in the center are easier to defend, but will encounter more player attacks. Mid-game alliances can change.

Now, the first city that is built is like the regular gameplay: start with a storehouse, and extend into your first capital city. Once the Town Hall building is erected, the player has the ability to see the region of influence of that city.

Now this idea only adds the ability to separate economies of cities. What I found happening was that too many serfs were transporting goods between these cities, and the roads are always weak links between cities. Also, if one city gets attacked and all serfs die: automatically all other serfs from other cities go to the attacked city and provide help there (and thus making it easy for the enemy to kill all my serfs). Separation of economies helps solve this problem:
- in case one city has hunger, while the other has enough inns with food, the citizens from the one city do not travel across the whole map to get some food.
- in case one city gets attacked, other serfs won't come and help the city out, as they are now separated.

However, sometimes you want to know how many citizens are in one city and in the other: the Town Hall provides statistics, normally given by the global window, for each specific region. Additionally, to actually allow transfer of citizens (and serfs in specific) between towns, the Town Hall will provide these features. And even more, to allow people sending goods to other regions, the market will be changed that allows sending goods between regions.


The first city you build, with the first town hall, will be marked as capital. The mode may even include that players are not allowed to attack the capital of their enemies (e.g. by marking that city region as "unwalkable" for all other players): the fighting is then concentrated on the "battlefield", in which settlements get built and demolished and rebuilt and demolished again. An extension to this "conquering" of enemy settlements might even be that you retain their goods in the storage house. This will make capital cities more important: sending expensive goods back to the capital makes them safe from plundering.

Then, after some set limit, the "unwalkable" marker for each capital is removed, and players are able to defeat others. This is done after a lengthy time (2 hours), to ensure everybody had the chance to build great defenses.

Some images:
Image
These are different player cities and regions. All colors are controlled by one player, but different cities have different economies.

Regions are shown on the map using something similar to this
Image
but then in player color and a lot bigger regions are shown, not just around one building as in this picture.
Last edited by H.A.H. on 29 May 2013, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Krom

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Post 29 May 2013, 16:22

Re: New Town Hall Idea

@Bence: Calm down, no need to get pissed off at ideas ;(

@HAH: Sketch up some prototypes, write down a playsession, see if it's interesting )
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