Trading

[Ravior]

Hello!

First off: Ive played the Original game of Knights and Merchants excessively when I was ten years younger. Now that I noticed this remake, I'm jumping up and down all the time, playing it with a passion. I had several multiplayer matches by now and I noticed the really good quality of a remake the two programmers and the community have created here. Its awesome. Also donated some money Its great!

So I have a suggestion to make about Trading with other players in your own team.

Problem:
The only way to do something that comes a little close to what the term "Trading" in a game like this in the remake right now is the market. And I have to say that this feature is something which was absolutely made for singleplayer games. This should work totally different in a multiplayer game.

Solution one:
The most easiest way to implement trading in the Game would be, that you select one or more goods in your warehouse and tell your merchants to bring them to the warehouse of another player. (This would be gifting, which is nothing unrealistic when comming to playing together).

Solution two:
Create a special trading place like the Marketplace, where you can put stuff in which you would trade for other goods, setting the price in some way.
But instead of them being magically removed and received like it is now, which is neck-breaking the main principle of the original games regarding anything must be created somewhere and dragged from there to the destination its now the following should be done:
The other real human or ai team-players should now be able to do the same:
Bring stuff in the same building, having it exchanged for the stuff you brought there for your or their prices.

This last one solution would be real trading as I would expect it from a game like Knights and Merchants.
It is not breaking the game's idea of the fact that resources need to be transported from point a to b, and ALSO enabling cooperative players to REALLY play together. That is, more than just sharing roads

So these are the ideas I had about this which I think would really fit in the game without going against any of its basic principles, keeping the pace and all.
I think both of my ideas fit in the game and are required for real cooperative play.

What do you guys think about this?
Are there plans like I explained them already? Mabye there is another type of this already in development?
I would absolutely think so because I'm pretty sure that many people would agree that the current possibilities of trading in a multiplayer game are not as good as they should be?

Greetings,
Ravior

[Ravior]

Just noticed there is a thread viewtopic.php?f=24&t=794 which already states that trading will be implemented. But this doesnt say much. I would like to know which way this will be implemented. Mabye similar to my ideas?

[Ben]

Ravior! How could you bring this up again?!

We've spoken about this at huge length in the past, but but you seriously just joined...an hour ago, so I understand.

Problem:
The only way to do something that comes a little close to what the term "Trading" in a game like this in the remake right now is the market. And I have to say that this feature is something which was absolutely made for singleplayer games. This should work totally different in a multiplayer game.

The marketplace was designed to work around multiplayer games. At the moment, the marketplace is terribly unfit for singleplayer. Original singleplayer maps will need to disable the market or dramatically reduce started resources, or it will be too overpowered.

The most easiest way to implement trading in the Game would be, that you select one or more goods in your warehouse and tell your merchants to bring them to the warehouse of another player. (This would be gifting, which is nothing unrealistic when comming to playing together).

I prefer my idea that I wrote somewhere else on the forum:

Perhaps if we add the ability to send goods to your allies we could just add your allies' player numbers (with the number being colored respectively) to the list of resources in the marketplace. Then, instead of selecting what you want in exchange for your goods, you select your ally's number and your goods will "appear" in your ally's marketplace.

Just another theory.

Anyway, problems with having merchants deliver goods:
1) Unpractical in many maps. They'd also need some pretty advanced pathfinding so they don't walk through enemy bases or fighting zones. Micromanaging would just be annoying.
2) We'd need new sprites for any new unit/building added to the game. At the moment, we don't have the money to hire a professional. Thanks to doners such as yourself, that may change one day.

Personally, I really like my idea (no, I don't always suggest things that I want in the game). There is a good reason that many RTS games just have resources appear "by magic" to other people's bases, and that is because there is no other good way to do it!
However, there are three more parts that I'd like to add to my idea:
1) There should be a "fee" that is charged for tributes to allies. The reason for this is because there should be a bonus for a player to make an entire economy for himself. If his ally is getting slightly "ripped off" by tributes, than that could balance this issue.
2) There should be a command that "accepts" the tribute. I wouldn't want to be sent 200 stone by a dim-wited-trolling-ally if I have stone unblocked in my storehouse, and later see that my serfs are all craming into the marketplace to get the stone out of it.
3) Trades that the player can't make for himself (for example, if a player is forbidden to sell his stone), then he should not be able to tribute it to his allies for obvious reasons.

Again, I love the idea of adding tribute to the game. It would offer much more variety in strategies and further encourage teamwork. I think of players who cannot fight good, but can make a strong build. They may enjoy being a "slinger." (a player whose main strategy is to tribute his resources to an ally)

[Krom]

I envision that we will eventually transform Market in multiplayer games in a "portal" between players trade.
There's no need to place the actual Market in the middle of the map and connect it with roads to every player and waste serfs and time on bringing resources to there and back again.

[Ravior]

Great! Thanks for your quick reply!

Its good to know that there was talked about this already and based on the facts you told I'm sure the devs will figure out a matching way for the game to solve this

You know, enthusiastic people like me find out about this remake, are happy because of it and want to learn anything about it... but this last bit is not so easy because the really interesting facts and information is spread throughout these forums. Mabye it can be consolidated somewhere?

[Ben]

Great! Thanks for your quick reply!

Its good to know that there was talked about this already and based on the facts you told I'm sure the devs will figure out a matching way for the game to solve this

You know, enthusiastic people like me find out about this remake, are happy because of it and want to learn anything about it... but this last bit is not so easy because the really interesting facts and information is spread throughout these forums. Mabye it can be consolidated somewhere?

Off topic:

There really isn't a good place to find all the changes to the Remake. Here is a quick list of some of the bigger ones (in my opinion)

1) RMB (Right-Mouse-Button serves multiple new functions. For example, in the school you can train 5 units at a time with RMB, and cancel the currently training unit, and all those thereafter by clicking on it with RMB.
2) Serfs now work way differently. They now seek the closest job that is near them, and will not "switch" with others, so planning your city is very important.
3) Laborers work much more efficiently. Having 30+ laborers is quite reasonable now.
4) Those ridiculous siege weapons are gone, along with the imba townhall.
5) You can now click-and-drag to place road plans, field plans, etc.
6) Holding down shift while placing buildings allows you to place multiple ones quickly.
7) The marketplace, of course.

That's all I can think of right now.

Back on topic:
@Krom,

There's no need to place the actual Market in the middle of the map and connect it with roads to every player and waste serfs and time on bringing resources to there and back again.

You aren't quoting me with the idea of connecting players, are you? Because my idea works 100% differently

[pawel95]

Hello new member,

I only want to say sth to ben, to his "offtopic" section
I think the 2 biggest things from the Remake are(its that often used, that we think it was also there in tpr):

+PeaceTime
+Reconnection of players :XD I think without these things, we would just be like playing 20 min games and the guy with 2 Mlita wins the game, thx remake team for that

[Ben]

With the exception of the marketplace, I was merely trying to cue our new member in on some features he might otherwise overlook/miss.

[T*AnTi-V!RuZz]

Yeah that's enough off-topic. Focus on the topic at hand, please.

[Ravior]

I was merely trying to cue our new member in on some features he might otherwise overlook/miss.

You did well. Thanks

I think I ask further questions about different features and stuff in the thread I linked in my secondary previous post.

I bet this market thingy will work out fine

[Ben]

I'm starting to doubt that we'll ever get tributes in. There are just so many different opinions on how to implement it

[Ravior]

Well, it doesnt matter how many opinions there are... our experienced gamedesigners will decide which one is the best.
Er... do we have such?

[Ben]

Do we have what? Experienced game designers? Krom has plenty of experience with modding, and both Lewin and Krom are experienced programmers...as for actual game design, I'm not sure what they have done other than the Remake.

But I'm not disappointed by any means...

[Krom]

Yep. Although I have "Graphics Design" diploma and can occasionally draw/paint something, I'm not that well with creative side of gamedesigning in general.

[Ravior]

Krom! Now I notice you!

Aren't you the one who did this World Racing 2 mod where you could drive with trucks? I remember doing that so often in splitscreen ^^ There were also little guys in the traffic driving on mopeds which I used to ram into them, so the will fly extremely fast rotating in any direction That was awesome man

About the game design stuff: Do you have any planning documents the community could have a look into? That would be interesting for me I'm also trying gamedev, but by now I've only done a little game to learn about all the basics including balancing, implementing a functional system of earning points or money, having a shop where you can spend them in a senseful way and all the technical stuff ranging from optimising code for drawing / calculating, network support. I would be also really interested in seeing how the networking in the remake works