Bug fixes (First company "The Shattered Kingdom")

[BornFree]

Hi everyone! I am from Russia and used google translator, so sorry for mistakes in my post
A month ago I started to pass remake first campaign and found many bugs. First of all, a training time of recruits in barracks in remake is set to 100 seconds. But in the original it was a random between 26 and 52 seconds (average 39). So AI gathers an army for attack for twice/last three times longer than necessary. Secondly, you can to fish in the remake but the food balance in a storehouses remained the same. Thirdly, often a player can to destroy enemy army immediately by initial forces or enter into the city without a fight. It's wrong.
I tried to correct the balance. It will make the game better.
Here is a list of changes. After the // you can see my comments about why did it.

Mission 1
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original

Mission 2
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Fish stocks in the storehouse removed // As in the original.
3. Stocks of loaves and wine reduced by 10 // On this map you can fish.
4. To defense of AI added 1 groupe of axefighters by 10 and 2 groups of bowmen by 6. To other 2 groups of bowmen added by one soldier, 1 groupe of axefighters removed 2 soldiers // It is necessary that the player could not to destroy the defense of AI by initial forces.
5. The formation of bowmen changed to 6 * 1 // This closes a the passages.
6. Location of the scouts moved just above // The effect of paragraph 4
7. Protective radius of the defensive line increased to 20 // Does not allow to the player to use the bridge's cheats

Mission 3

Mission 4
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. The player's defense of axefighters is set 6 , 6 bowmen, 6 spearmen. //It is necessary that the player could not to destroy the defense of AI by initial forces.
3. Stocks of loaves reduced by 15, wine by 30, sausages by 10 // On this map you can fish + the effect of paragraph 2
4. 3 groups of AI's bowmen shifted by a few cells to the left // For better control of the bridge

Mission 5
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Stocks of loaves reduced by 10, wine by 20. Fish stocks are set at 10 // On this map you can fish

Mission 6

Mission 7
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Stocks of loaves reduced by 10, wine by 20. Fish stocks are set at 10 // On this map you can fish


Mission 8
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original

Mission 9
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. To defense of AI (top) added 2 groups of crossbowmen by 10 //Now the player can not go into town without a serious fight.
3. To defense of AI (top, inside town) added 2 groups of knights by 12, 2 groups of swordfighters by 15, 2 groups of crossbowmen by 10 //Necessary for the first attack
4. To defense of AI (right) added 2 groups of spearmen by 12, 1 group of axefighters by 15, 1 group of scouts by 8 //Now the player can not win without a significant loss of troops
5. Protective radius of the defensive line is reworked//Now the player can't to destroy enemy's troops by 1.
6. The priorities of defensive positions modified //AI protects the most important areas
7. Time before AI attacks is modified//In the original version the first attack starts after 167 minutes. This is too long and contradicts the briefing
8. Some attacks now has a different targets (storehouse, closest building, ect) //Mission becomes more difficult and interesting
9. Time of appearance of scripted messages corrected by according to new parameters.
10. AI's maximum recruits is set by 250 //The effect of paragraph 2 and 3.

Mission 10

Mission 11
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Stocks of loaves reduced by 10, wine by 10, sausages by 10. Fish stocks are set at 10 // On this map you can fish

Mission 12
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. The player's defense reduced by 12 bowmen and 4 of axefighters. Added 10 of swordfighters // Player can't to destroy the AI (top) in early game
3. Stocks of loaves reduced by 10, wine by 25, sausages by 10. Fish stocks are set at 10 // On this map you can fish + troop reduction (paragraph 2)
4. Gold reserves are increased by 5 //Troop reduction (paragraph 2)

Mission 13

Mission 14
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Stocks of loaves reduced by 10, wine by 10, sausages by 10. Fish stocks are set at 10 // On this map you can fish
3. A formation of AI's knights (bottom) changed to 6 * 2 // This closes a the passages.

Mission 15
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Fish stocks in the storehouse removed // As in the original.
3. A player can not build a fisherman's hut //There is no water on this map
4. To defense of AI (top) added 2 groups of spearmen by 10 and 14, 1 group of bowmen by 10 //Does not allow to the player to use the map's bugs
5. To defense of AI (bottom) added 1 groupe of pikemen by 6. Knight's groupe is increased by 2 units and it's formation changed to 2 * 7 //Does not allow to the player to use the map's bugs

Mission 16
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. To defense of AI (right) added 4 groups of crossbowmen by 10. 2 groups of knights increased to 12 units, added 1 knights groupe by 6 and 2 groups of swordfighters are increased by 4 units//It is necessary that the player could not to destroy the defense of AI by initial forces or could not to use the map's bugs
3. To defense of AI (top) added 2 groups of crossbowmen by 10, 1 group of swordfighters by 10. Now a location of the crossbowmen little displaced. //Now the player can not go into town without a serious fight.

Mission 17

Mission 18
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. To defense of AI (top-right) added 1 group of crossbowmen by 12. Protective radius of the knights increased to 20 //It is necessary that the player could not to destroy the defense of AI by initial forces.
3. Added 2 units to the groupe of swordfighters (top-right). Location little displaced. //Now the player can not go into town without a serious fight.
4. Fish stocks in the storehouse removed // As in the original.
5. A player can not build a fisherman's hut //There is no water on this map

Mission 19

Mission 20
1. A training time of recruits in barracks set to 39 seconds // As in the original
2. Fish stocks in the storehouse removed // As in the original.

Now a time of AI's attacks similar to the original, fishing taken into account for the balance and added troops serve only as protection.
I tested all of the changes, but if you find any bugs, please report about it in this topic.

The update for the first campaign attached.

[Lewin]

I have some comments on your changes: (note: These are my personal views, and not the "KaM Remake team" views)

I don't agree with your "39 second" rule at all. I just tested in TSK (English version) and I got 26 seconds between each soldier equipped, 4 times in a row. I've attached the mission I used in my test (modified version of TSK 1). I tested it separately for iron troops, leather troops, swordfighters/axefighters, bowmen/crossbowmen, spearmen/pikemen, every time I get 26 seconds. Even so, this is strange because in TPR the rates are 100 seconds for iron, 50 seconds for leather (I only ever tested TPR so the Remake uses those values). It looks like they changed it from 26 to 50/100 in TPR for some weird reason... If you were getting 26,52,26,52,26 (did the barracks always have at least 1 recruit and enough weapons?) then it must depend on some other factor too. If anybody can shed light on this or do some tests in TSK/TPR let us know your results.

I don't see any reason to delete the fish from the storehouses. I believe it was added in SR3, but fish is only provided on maps where fishing is possible.

I can't really comment on the balance changes without testing them, but keep in mind that we want the campaigns to be winnable by newer players too, they should not be balanced so they are challenging for "KaM experts" like us.

Also, if some of the early missions can be won with the starting forces that's fine IMO, only skilled players will be able to achieve that, and it was possible in the original game too (the walk throughs on this site show how you can win most of the early missions with your starting force). I don't think it needs to be changed for the early missions.

Many of the other fixes sound good, and could probably be included in SR3 (if Litude still plans to release it). A few examples of changes that sound good to me:
- The priorities of defensive positions modified //AI protects the most important areas
- Added 2 units to the groupe of swordfighters (top-right). Location little displaced. //Now the player can not go into town without a serious fight.
- Time before AI attacks is modified//In the original version the first attack starts after 167 minutes. This is too long and contradicts the briefing
- Protective radius of the defensive line is reworked//Now the player can't to destroy enemy's troops by 1.
- A player can not build a fisherman's hut //There is no water on this map

[BornFree]

I just tested in TSK (English version) and I got 26 seconds between each soldier equipped, 4 times in a row.

I meticulously tested 26/52 sec in 4 mission TSK (original, not Remake). Even a barracks has enough recruits and weapons, I saw 26 and 52 sec. You can have 4 recruits by 26 sec, next 3 by 52, next 2 by 26. I think it's a random (Krom thinks this is can to depends on interval of AI's update)
Lewin, you tested 1 mission in original version? Try to test it in Remake, and you will see 100-110 seconds between each soldier equipped. It's terrible

Idon't see any reason to delete the fish from the storehouses

Now what about fish. There no fish in original. For example, you have 50 loaves, 50 wine, 50 sausages. Now you have 50 loaves, 50 wine, 50 sausages + 20 fish + new food source from a fisherman's hut. Even if it was added in SR3, quantity of other goods remained the same. I think the game don't was rebalanced and we must to do this now.

keep in mind that we want the campaigns to be winnable by newer players too, they should not be balanced so they are challenging for "KaM experts" like us

All added troops will serve only as protection. It will affect on newer players only those, that they will have longer to create their army for attack.

Also, if some of the early missions can be won with the starting forces that's fine IMO, only skilled players will be able to achieve that, and it was possible in the original game too

Yes, it is. But most players know a tactic, when 1 bowman attacks enemy and moves back. In most missions even if all AI's army immediately responds to attack, it can be destroyed. I do not think that it needs to be a skilled player.
When you win after many hours, you get more enjoyment out of winning if you know, that you could not win in the first 15 minutes. It's my opinion.

[pawel95]

Well I´m happy that you try to search some bugs in TSK. However I will test the whole campaign in the next release also. When you want,we can do it together Because most of the things are AI things. I dont want to believe that you have really that much bugs found. Normaly the Remake team has just copied the whole Map from TSK/TPR to the Remake folder. So like I said often only AI attacks problems should pop out, or some general things like:

1 sec in TSK = 1,12 sec in Remake. So it is also possible that recruit timing is wrong. However than this timing should be wrong in like every map of the game and not only on some maps. However maybe I´m also wrong at this point


And you must be under attention. Like Lewin mentioned. Some things could be EXTRA implemented by someone,like the fishes in storehouse, because you msut know that fishermen came in time of TPR so maybe just the developers forgotten about the fishes

[Krom]

@Pawel: Please explain how 1 sec in TSK = 1,12 sec in Remake.

I agree with BornFree on Fish supplies, because starting food value in a mission became bigger by adding Fish. IIRC in KaM people would eat all 4 kinds of food in Inn (that means they eat 180% condition), but in Remake they would eat only to 100% condition. That can be tested: build an Inn and see when starting supplies will reach 0.

[pawel95]

Nono. This 1,12 sec was just a random time to explain the possible problem,but I dont think this problem exists.
With this Remake sec= 1,12 sec i mean that the game isn´t made really from "really" timemoments. So it´s more built by ticks, isn´t it? So i know this possible problem from some other game remakes, when for example the whole game is speeded up little bit(only with army movements) than one movement tick in the one game is played in the same time like 2 ticks in the other game.

Thats how it´s possible that something like recruittime/attacktime/eattime Could all be false
However I haven´t seen in any tests of my that there are differents to normal TPR/TSK.

[Lewin]

Nono. This 1,12 sec was just a random time to explain the possible problem,but I dont think this problem exists.
With this Remake sec= 1,12 sec i mean that the game isn´t made really from "really" timemoments. So it´s more built by ticks, isn´t it? So i know this possible problem from some other game remakes, when for example the whole game is speeded up little bit(only with army movements) than one movement tick in the one game is played in the same time like 2 ticks in the other game.

Thats how it´s possible that something like recruittime/attacktime/eattime Could all be false
However I haven´t seen in any tests of my that there are differents to normal TPR/TSK.

To my knowledge KaM runs at 10 ticks per second, the same as the Remake. If it's not 10 then it's VERY close because otherwise the animations would look odd. I doubt they would make it run at 9 ticks per second or something odd, 10 is a nice number for the tick rate of a game. I'm not sure what you mean about KaM not using ticks, by tick we just mean when the game updates itself, which happens 10 times per second in KaM.

If you wanted to measure the tick rate of KaM you could record exactly 1 second of video and count the number of distinct frames (looking at something animating like a unit walking). Or it could probably be reverse engineered, e.g. using one of those cheat engines that speeds up timers in games (does it tell you what speed it was running at originally?). You could also make a mission for KaM where a message is sent to you after 72000 ticks (2 hours), then leave the game running and time with a stop watch, stopping it when the message appears.

[pawel95]

Well i havent said its different,just add things to first post of poststarter.

[Lewin]

Reducing the amount of food because of fish is wrong, because Litude already did this in SR3 when he added the fish. For example open up TSK 7 from original TSK (not TPR):
!ADD_WARE 8 80 // Wein
!ADD_WARE 10 60 // Brot
!ADD_WARE 13 30 // Wurst
Total items = 170 (food value = 66).

Now look at it in the Remake (SR3):
!ADD_WARE 8 70 // Wein
!ADD_WARE 10 50 // Brot
!ADD_WARE 13 20 // Wurst
!ADD_WARE 27 20 // Fisch
Total items = 160 (food value = 63).

Now look at your "fix":
!ADD_WARE 8 50 // Wein
!ADD_WARE 10 40 // Brot
!ADD_WARE 13 20 // Wurst
!ADD_WARE 27 10 // Fisch
Total items = 120 (food value = 48).

Another example, TSK 5:
Original TSK:
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 10 30 // brot
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 8 40 // wein
!ADD_WARE_TO_ALL 13 20 // wurst
Total items = 90 (food value = 36)

SR3/Remake:
!ADD_WARE 10 25 // brot
!ADD_WARE 8 40 // wein
!ADD_WARE 13 10 // wurst
!ADD_WARE 27 20 // fisch
Total items = 85 (food value = 38)

BornFree fix:
!ADD_WARE 10 15 // brot
!ADD_WARE 8 20 // wein
!ADD_WARE 13 10 // wurst
!ADD_WARE 27 10 // fisch
Total items = 55 (food value = 23)

So actually SR3/the Remake has almost exactly the same amount of food as original TSK had, and your fix makes this MUCH lower, making the campaign much harder. Please recheck your own original TSK campaign (unpatched).

We don't want to make the campaign be on "hardcore mode" just because experienced players find it easy these days. I remember when I first played it in TSK I found it quite challenging.

I'm still unable to reproduce the "26/52 seconds" rule. But I agree we should make the equip rate faster so it's more like it was in TSK, TPR made it far slower for some reason, and we copied this in the Remake.

The other fixes mostly sound fine.

[BornFree]

Hi, Lewin. I think I am find the defect of the rule "26/52 seconds". In the original the training time of recruits in a barracks set to 26 seconds, and if we have in the barracks enough weapons and recruits then we will see those 26 seconds. But in fact in the game we have 26 and 52 seconds, because in the 1 of 3-4 cycles the recruit comes from school to the barracks on 28-29 seconds. So he will train in next time (on 52 second). You can see this affect by this link http://youtu.be/ons6P8hZn_k
So, what we will to do? Set the training time of recruits in a barracks to 26 seconds or to another number?

Now what about a food. How do you calculate the food value (66, 63 and 48)? Even if in SR3 Litude rebalanced this items in a storehouses, he didn't consider the possibility to build a fisherman's hut. Campaign's rivers (near player) has 70+ of fishes and this fact making the campaign too easy if we don't reduce the amount of food in the storehouse. My fix is redused the food's items by 30-40, but the campaign's rivers gives much more for the player how I am already said.
It's better, than nothing, you don't think so?

[Bence791]

BornFree, the "Recruit timer" or whatever it is called for the AI counts the elapsed time between 2 trained recruits (as I know). So it trains 1 recruit, then if it is set to 26 seconds (the timer), 26 seconds later he will train another. I can't understand this thing you mean with "26-52".

On the other hand, I can't see the point of speaking about fish if this topic is about TSK. I do think fishing was implemented in TPR

[Krom]

@Bence: 26/52 rule was found out when testing how often AI trains soldiers, that was every 26 or 52 seconds. Hence the rule. Recruits training rate is a separate thing.

Fish was added to TSK campaign by Litude in SR, as far as I know. So what is ontopic here, is that overall food supply should be preserved between old and fixed variants, including Fish.

[BornFree]

BornFree, the "Recruit timer" or whatever it is called for the AI counts the elapsed time between 2 trained recruits (as I know). So it trains 1 recruit, then if it is set to 26 seconds (the timer), 26 seconds later he will train another. I can't understand this thing you mean with "26-52".

On the other hand, I can't see the point of speaking about fish if this topic is about TSK. I do think fishing was implemented in TPR

If AI can't to train 1 unit on 26 second, he will train it after next 26 seconds. 26+26=52 and thats I call the rule of "26-52". In the original we have something like this: 26-26-52-26 but in the Remake we have 110-110-110-110 now We need to define: set the new training time on 26 seconds (then we have the same situation between 26 or 52 sec) or may be some average number 32-33 sec ((26+26+52+26)/4=32,5 sec) and to have always 32,5 sec.

About fish - in the Remake the player can to built a fisherman's hut in both compaign's (in the original only in TPR). It's greatly affected to the balance and we need to correct it.

[Lewin]

About fish - in the Remake the player can to built a fisherman's hut in both compaign's (in the original only in TPR). It's greatly affected to the balance and we need to correct it.

It's already been corrected. Please read my post above again. Compare the amounts of food in your original TSK files and the Remake campaign. Other foods were already reduced because of fish.
Food value was calculated based on how much each food type fills up a unit (e.g. wine 30%, fish 50%...)

I get 25 seconds in TSK every time I test. I give the AI 20 recruits waiting around his barracks (so he always enough to equip something when he wants to) and he equips a warrior every 25-26 seconds. So I think we should use equip rate of 25 or 26 in the TSK campaign. Recruit equip rate is a separate thing as Krom said.

[BornFree]

About fish - in the Remake the player can to built a fisherman's hut in both compaign's (in the original only in TPR). It's greatly affected to the balance and we need to correct it.

It's already been corrected. Please read my post above again.

Ok, take your examples:
1) TSK 7
Original
Total items = 170
Remake
Total items = 160

Ingame KaM' map editor shows 610 fishes in the water. This is tantamount to reducing by 10 stock items?

2)TSK 5
Total items = 90
Remake
Total items = 85
Ingame KaM' map editor shows 90 fishes (near player) and 80 (a little further away) in the water. And reducing was only by 5...


P.S. I will set equip rate for 26 seconds after we come to an agreement on all points.