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How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 14:32
by EDMatt
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDIwNwQGo24
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSUjkrrF7xM
Enjoy imba strats while you can
You can't go wrong spamming knights or swordsmen, especially when they are backed up by tons of militia.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 19:10
by batoonike
Great initiative. Totally decent commentary in terms of speaking speed, clearness etc. Also I like really many of the suggestions about traffic and stuff placement. I would like to argue on a few things though:
1) If you don't block stone delivery, I believe you will need less than 5 masons for 20 builders. Blocking stone delivery obviously reduces somewhat the total amount of stone you gather, because there will be short moments where mason is waiting for stones to be taken away.
2) I think you can have less woodcutters than 9 if you place them in a place where there is actually space for planting and cutting trees.
3) THREE iron smelters? I might be going over the edge here but I believe my tests show that actually 3 mines can properly supply only one iron smelter. Try it in singleplayer with 1 and 2 smelters per 3 iron mines. And check if you get any bonus even from the second one.
4) I would keep building stuff like beginning of leather production, extra towers, mine updates etc. Just in case the other players are also competent.
However I must say you got a pretty large army fast so it defenitely works on that map.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 20:04
by Romek
Great initiative. Totally decent commentary in terms of speaking speed, clearness etc. Also I like really many of the suggestions about traffic and stuff placement. I would like to argue on a few things though:
1) If you don't block stone delivery, I believe you will need less than 5 masons for 20 builders. Blocking stone delivery obviously reduces somewhat the total amount of stone you gather, because there will be short moments where mason is waiting for stones to be taken away.
2) I think you can have less woodcutters than 9 if you place them in a place where there is actually space for planting and cutting trees.
3) THREE iron smelters? I might be going over the edge here but I believe my tests show that actually 3 mines can properly supply only one iron smelter. Try it in singleplayer with 1 and 2 smelters per 3 iron mines. And check if you get any bonus even from the second one.
4) I would keep building stuff like beginning of leather production, extra towers, mine updates etc. Just in case the other players are also competent.
However I must say you got a pretty large army fast so it defenitely works on that map.
Warning ! HEAVY TROLL DETECTED !
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 20:23
by sado1
1) If you don't block stone delivery, I believe you will need less than 5 masons for 20 builders. Blocking stone delivery obviously reduces somewhat the total amount of stone you gather, because there will be short moments where mason is waiting for stones to be taken away.
L
O
L
OK but seriously. Try to think about how serfs bringing TONS of stone, influence the speed of delivering stuff to/from other buildings.
2) I think you can have less woodcutters than 9 if you place them in a place where there is actually space for planting and cutting trees.
You plant faster if you have more woodcutters in one place where there's much open space.
3) THREE iron smelters? I might be going over the edge here but I believe my tests show that actually 3 mines can properly supply only one iron smelter. Try it in singleplayer with 1 and 2 smelters per 3 iron mines. And check if you get any bonus even from the second one.
Oh my god, do you really believe that? One mine for one smelter is almost enough. It's better to have one mine more than the number of smelters (so, 4 mines for 3 smelters) but it's not that needed. Remember: the fact that you have a full smithy isn't a good thing! If you have 1-2 iron constantly, it's enough.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 20:31
by Da Revolution
Batoonike is right.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 21:13
by The Dark Lord
Well I don't agree with batoonike either, but I've been thinking about bringing stone to storehouses... You see, I think brining stone to storehouses has the lowest priority of all deliveries. So serfs only do it when there is no other job available... It doesn't sound too bad. But it will slow you down a little, because there might be no free serfs when there is a new job available. What do you guys think?
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:13
by dicsoupcan
it slows you down, imagine having 5 stonemasons and serfs storing it, each stonemasons makes 3 stone, so 3x15 means 15 serfs are occupied of you are not building each time the stonemasons are done producing.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:16
by The Dark Lord
But that's the point, they won't bring it to the storehouse if there are other things to do. I think the negative effect is smaller than most people think.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:21
by dicsoupcan
imagine having 5-10 serfs on the other side of the town going to the stonemasons to store it, they have to walk through your entire town and then back to the storehouse. in the meantime there will be plenty of jobs they could fulfill. but that i my opinion.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:24
by The Dark Lord
Well obviously you must make strategic decisions, but sometimes your stonemasons are on the opposite side of the place where you are building, with the storehouse between them. If you're building there, serfs will have to walk very far anyway. If you're storing some stones in your storehouse when serfs have nothing else to do, they don't have to walk that far. But you are right too, in many cases you will just waste time.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:34
by batoonike
1) You don't have serves delivering tons of stone because you don't make excess stone masons in the first place. You will have 3-4 masons working at max rate, not 5 working at less-than-maximum output. You obviously save the time it takes to build 1-2 masons + harvesting the resources for those buildings, even if it ends up somewhat the same stoning speed.
2) Of course if you have more woodcutters in any fixed area you get more wood. The point is to increase the total area in which you harvest and plant wood and by doing this, decrease the number of woodcutters needed.
3) THREE iron smelters
They have changed the ratios from when I last tested it. It was something like a year or so ago. Now 1:1 ratio of mines and smelters still results in a slight unemployment of the smelter but nothing nearly as bad as it used to be. So 3:3 seems reasonably enough. But it used to be 2:1 or 3:1, trust me
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 22:48
by dicsoupcan
1) You don't have serves delivering tons of stone because you don't make excess stone masons in the first place. You will have 3-4 masons working at max rate, not 5 working at less-than-maximum output. You obviously save the time it takes to build 1-2 masons + harvesting the resources for those buildings, even if it ends up somewhat the same stoning speed.
Erm nowadays we use between 6 and 8 stonemasons depending on the map or loc. 3-4 is only early game.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 23:41
by sado1
1) You don't have serves delivering tons of stone because you don't make excess stone masons in the first place. You will have 3-4 masons working at max rate, not 5 working at less-than-maximum output. You obviously save the time it takes to build 1-2 masons + harvesting the resources for those buildings, even if it ends up somewhat the same stoning speed.
2) Of course if you have more woodcutters in any fixed area you get more wood. The point is to increase the total area in which you harvest and plant wood and by doing this, decrease the number of woodcutters needed.
3) THREE iron smelters
They have changed the ratios from when I last tested it. It was something like a year or so ago. Now 1:1 ratio of mines and smelters still results in a slight unemployment of the smelter but nothing nearly as bad as it used to be. So 3:3 seems reasonably enough. But it used to be 2:1 or 3:1, trust me
3) If you tested it a year ago, it makes little sense to speak about that.
2) I'm not sure how to explain it best, Matt probably will tell you why is it true, but I think the lack of space on maps is important. Usually you don't have enough reasonable space to use for woodcutters. You need to make them in an area quite close enough to your city (even maybe inside the city sometimes)
And I'm sorry I was so harsh in my first post, it's just that what you wrote seems to me completely not true. That's not a reason to be harsh though.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 27 Dec 2012, 23:42
by Da Revolution
Like Sado mentioned you need lots of space for 8-12 woodcutters. So people will build them quite close to each other. Games demand way more buildings then when you were playing I guess.
Re: How to build rush!
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2012, 13:13
by Lewin
I plan to watch this video and write a detailed reply here later, but for now I'd just like to clear something up:
They have changed the ratios from when I last tested it. It was something like a year or so ago. Now 1:1 ratio of mines and smelters still results in a slight unemployment of the smelter but nothing nearly as bad as it used to be. So 3:3 seems reasonably enough. But it used to be 2:1 or 3:1, trust me
We have never changed the production rates of houses in the KaM Remake, they have always been the same as the original game. If you don't believe me test it in TSK/TPR or an old version of the Remake. I remember back in TSK I found that 1-2 iron mine supplied 1 iron smelter, I think the ratio has always been approximately 1:1 or maybe 2:1.