All for One 6p

[Leeuwgie]

Hello,

I don't know if it's mapmaking time already but I've decided to make a new 6 player map. I've named it All for One for a reason. The player on the front needs to be protected on both wings by his teammates who have a supportive role to play here. If one of them can't defend the player on the front he will be outflanked and can be defeated too easely. Just because he has too much space to defend all by himself. In other words, teamwork is even more important on this map. Let me show you some pictures first.

Team A (bottom):


Team B (top):


The frontline (112 tiles wide):


The 2 supportive players (on each team):
can build 4 ironmines each
can build 4 goldmines each
can NOT build towers
start with 3 builders
start with 4 serfs

The player in the middle (on each team):
can build 5 ironmines
can build 5 goldmines
is the onlyone who can build towers
start with 4 builders
start with 5 serfs

Food in the storehouse is lesser than on normal maps so if you focus only on weapons early mass starvation will take place before peacetime ends. There should be enough space to place all building if you place your woodcutters wisely. Last but not least, NOBODY can build a market.

Starting resources for every player:
60 // Stone
50 // Timber
60 // Gold
40 // Wine
30 // Fish
20 // Loaves
10 // Sausages
20 // Tree trunks

Here's a picture of the middleplayer on team A (loc 4):


We have playtested this map yesterday several times and I've made some improvements:
Luki and Da Revo wanted to see some more buildingspace so I created some more for all players except player 6.
Mully was bothered by some annoying mushrooms so I removed them.
I've added more trees for all players except player 1.
I've made the lake in the southwest smaller so player 4 has more buildingspace and he can now cut some extra trees to the northeast.
Now 20 tree trunks are added to every storehouse to avoid possible early woodproblems.

Downloadlink: http://www.mediafire.com/?fq0yiidaigyycys

Suggestions are always welcome,
To

[The Dark Lord]

It's late and I won't respond in detail on everything, I'll do that later. But a couple of things catched my attention:
- How can mushrooms be annoying? If it is the kind of mushroom that actually blocks a tile you must be using an old version of Krom's MapEditor.
- In my humble opinion as a non-market player, providing 20 tree trunks at the beginning (= 40 timber as we all know) kind of takes away the need for a market anyway and I think it takes away the challenge to play without a market as well.
- I am still concerned about the player located in the center, between the players in the south. I think there is no efficient way of building your village there, because it is almost impossible to have your iron weapon production close to your leather production due to lack of space. The center player in the north has a much easier location.

[Bo_]

I've played this map once, great map.
I realy love the role system for each loc..

But you should fix the mushroom tiles, they don't allow you to build so it's quite annoying since you don't have many building space.

[Lewin]

I think there are some kinds of mushrooms that block building, (same with flowers) but not all of them do. I think there are duplicates of some of the mushrooms, one blocks and the other doesn't. You can check in the Remake using the passability slider and canWalk or canBuild. I like mushrooms and other decorations so just put the correct type and they will be dug out.

In general I'd say the map looks good

[Leeuwgie]

providing 20 tree trunks at the beginning (= 40 timber as we all know) kind of takes away the need for a market anyway and I think it takes away the challenge to play without a market as well.

I agree but on the other hand I've added only 50 timber in the storehouse, many other maps have more starting timber. It's not only for wood I disabled the market but also for skins, horses and food ofcourse. If someone wants 12 knights when pt ends he has to put an early stable up instead of 4 goldsmelters and a market, so we see how it goes without.

The center player in the north has a much easier location.

Is that only because you can't have pigfarms near your iron weapon production/fort to the east? I don't mind if the serfs have to walk with skins a little further. I don't know which position is better. But I do know player 4 has 2 advantages player 1 doesn't have. The first one is he can go straight from the gold to the iron while player 1 needs to choose to go for iron or gold first. The other is that the iron montain acts like a natural defence which will save him some towers.

To

[Da Revolution]

Adding tree trunks is no problem, but i think 20 is a bit too much. At loc 1 i had no real wood shortage except for my weapon production. For example add 5 timber and 5 tree trunks instead of those 20 tree trunks.

[Bo_]

I think we should all stop complaining about the amount of wood...
If To wanted to place 20 Trunks that we should all be happy with that, we must respect his choice.

[Mulberry]

Hey. Thank you for a new map, To. I want to repeat few things wich i have said before. Unfortunatly no one mentioned it in this topic. So:

1) There is no need for extra tree truncks in storehouse, you have absolutly enought trees on each location. ANd ofcourse it is a chalange but very fun and educational.
2) Too much coal (loc 6, for example)
3) The amount of food was good in first version
4) It is not interesting to play this map with 4 iron spots per player (reasons explained in point #5)
5) The main problem of the map,in my opinion, is that it is narrow wich gives us 2 important consequences:

- Less place for battle, less possibility to flank the enemy => wich makes cavalry uniits useless and makes meat shield+crossborrow a very strong tactic. Ofcourse you can counter it with other type of meat shiled+crossborrow. But is it really interesting? No.

- Less building space (not enought for farms) wich makes one type of weapon production the most usefull. It is spamming production. We all know here very well what is unit spam. But i will show you 2 the most annoying examples of it:

1) Floreks old gameplay: mass crossborrow+mass militia+pikes (you need farms only for food, 4iron mines and 7 woodcutters is enought to spamm 40 crossborrow, 10-15pikes, 55 militia in 60 min and continue to produce in this rythm)

2) Romek old gameplay: mass knights+cross+militia (also there is only 3-4 farms needed for decent horse production, 4 iron mines is enought for 4 iron smithy wich is enought for 3 armor s + 2 weapon smith. This way you can have 10-15 knights, 20-25 crossborrow+ 55 militia in 60 min)

In my opinion there are so much things to do to impove this map... But first of all it will be not fair and not interesting to play it until: it will be less narrow (bigger map size, square form), there will be only 2 iron spots for 1 player

P.s. I made this post for you, To. I would really like if you respond. Thnks

[Luki]

For me 2 iron mines looks so poor- no worth to make other units than xbows, which make players more using xbows+ militia...

Now for me is enough space, i tried solo in game make my city wisely, and havent problem with placing 9 farms and good iron production.

I agree with Mully about battle space, its really low.

Personally for me too many coal isnt problem, if no market possible. But maybe this amount is enough for 2 h+ game? I will try this.

Overall, i like this map and idea, good job To.

[The Dark Lord]

I agree but on the other hand I've added only 50 timber in the storehouse, many other maps have more starting timber. It's not only for wood I disabled the market but also for skins, horses and food ofcourse. If someone wants 12 knights when pt ends he has to put an early stable up instead of 4 goldsmelters and a market, so we see how it goes without.

Well that's true, but having enough wood is actually the hardest aspect of playing without a market. 20 tree trunks is a lot, I agree with Revo that 5 timber and 5 trunks would be better.

Is that only because you can't have pigfarms near your iron weapon production/fort to the east? I don't mind if the serfs have to walk with skins a little further.

I always try to build my village like this, because I think it's the most efficient. Of course this is not always possible, because the location of coal is not always suitable. But for the bottom player, the gold and stone mountains block a lot of building space, in my opinion there is no real efficient way of setting up your village.

I don't know which position is better. But I do know player 4 has 2 advantages player 1 doesn't have. The first one is he can go straight from the gold to the iron while player 1 needs to choose to go for iron or gold first.

In terms of distances, it's almost the same for both players. And when the upper player builds towards the west and east for mines, he immediately has created space for iron smithies and metallurgist's as well; the player in the south has to build somewhere else first for his iron smithies.

The other is that the iron montain acts like a natural defence which will save him some towers.

That's true.

I think we should all stop complaining about the amount of wood...

I think these map topics are created to discuss things like that.

[Leeuwgie]

Hey. Thank you for a new map, To. I want to repeat few things wich i have said before. Unfortunatly no one mentioned it in this topic. So:

1) There is no need for extra tree truncks in storehouse, you have absolutly enought trees on each location. ANd ofcourse it is a chalange but very fun and educational.

Many players use the market in the beginning to trade for logs and I thought because you start with relatively few timber I could add some tree trunks to focus on early gold instead of building more woodcutters. But I agree so I will add less tree trunk in the next update.

2) Too much coal (loc 6, for example)

Much coal yes but I don't think too much. Most of the time coal is depleted first, on maps like Across the Desert for instance, and I don't want players to run out of resources because there is no market available

3) The amount of food was good in first version

The amount of food is untouched

4) It is not interesting to play this map with 4 iron spots per player (reasons explained in point #5)

I've not seen players build their 4th ironmine before peacetime yet, I personally think 2 is too less, 3 is good but if you want to go for knights also you need an extra armor smithy and thus an extra ironmine. The 4th ironmine is not around the corner so can't be build early on. For the players in the corners that is

5) The main problem of the map,in my opinion, is that it is narrow wich gives us 2 important consequences:

I've designed this map with an 112 tiles wide frontline so I think there is enough space for flanking manouvres, I think that if your team can take out the enemy player in the middle the battle is won already. But yes the acces to the other 2 players bases is narrow but thats also why I disabled the building of towers for them

- Less place for battle, less possibility to flank the enemy => wich makes cavalry uniits useless and makes meat shield+crossborrow a very strong tactic. Ofcourse you can counter it with other type of meat shiled+crossborrow. But is it really interesting? No.

If you refer to most players who train mass xbows and a meatshield (usually militia) I agree but that has nothing to do with this map but more with the overall gameplay of this game imo

- Less building space (not enought for farms) wich makes one type of weapon production the most usefull. It is spamming production. We all know here very well what is unit spam. But i will show you 2 the most annoying examples of it:

This is the location I tested because some people said there wasn't enough space for farms on this loc, this screen shows there is more than enough space left. This is about 64 mins into the game:


1) Floreks old gameplay: mass crossborrow+mass militia+pikes (you need farms only for food, 4iron mines and 7 woodcutters is enought to spamm 40 crossborrow, 10-15pikes, 55 militia in 60 min and continue to produce in this rythm)

2) Romek old gameplay: mass knights+cross+militia (also there is only 3-4 farms needed for decent horse production, 4 iron mines is enought for 4 iron smithy wich is enought for 3 armor s + 2 weapon smith. This way you can have 10-15 knights, 20-25 crossborrow+ 55 militia in 60 min)

Interesting analysis of the 2 above players gameplay, I didn't know that. All I have to add is that (in general) it's best to always try to train different units to confuse the enemy. For instance, my opponents will never know if I go for horses or not

In my opinion there are so much things to do to impove this map... But first of all it will be not fair and not interesting to play it until: it will be less narrow (bigger map size, square form), there will be only 2 iron spots for 1 player

To build a narrow as possible map for me was a starting point. It was actually 96 tiles wide in my first attempt but it turned out to be too small

P.s. I made this post for you, To. I would really like if you respond. Thnks

Thanks for your post, you know I appreciate your opinion

[Leeuwgie]

I always try to build my village like this, because I think it's the most efficient. Of course this is not always possible, because the location of coal is not always suitable. But for the bottom player, the gold and stone mountains block a lot of building space, in my opinion there is no real efficient way of setting up your village.

Interesting indeed. If you take a look at the picture in my previous post you can see I've cut away the trees to the east early to set up my entire weapon production there. In the last version of this map I also created some space beneath the stone so you can create a shortcut like I did from the storehouse to the eastside of your base.
Btw I forgot to mention yesterday, the closest gold is 3 times closer to the player on loc 4 (13 tiles road) compared with the player on loc 1(38 tiles road). I consider that to be a huge bonus

Thanks,
To

[The Dark Lord]

Indeed, I see you had to split up your village. I think there is no way to avoid that with those mountains. I'll just accept it as it is and hopefully I'll get to play on another location.

[Lewin]

I've added the map to the Remake so it can be tested in the release candidate even if this isn't the final version.
If you feel like writing a description/story for the map that would be great, for now I've just copied part of your first post.

[Leeuwgie]

I made some changes on the map:
-10 tree trunks in the storehouse to start with and I've made the terrain a little less steep at some places.

So an updated downloadlink: http://www.mediafire.com/?02zk2a1sfbytget

Have a nice day,
To