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EDMatt

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 21:55

Re: Towers

I don't see the problem with making towers and less troops during pt. That's a choice, towers are like troops that you can't move.

And you say they can make their army after pt, well so can the non-spammer. So he'll end up with a much bigger army. The spammer has a small army and some towers, that sounds balanced to me. If the spammer made crossbowmen instead of towers that would be a similar result, they still kill enemies from a distance. But nobody complains about crossbowmen campers.
The majority's opinion is that it is OP, especially To and Mully.
I think you should take our word for it Lewin :)
btw it was me who spammed those towers.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 21:59

Re: Towers

The majority doesn't like it that they can't just march into your town. I believe it's not all about arguments here but also about 'feelings'. Towers aren't overpowered.
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Shadaoe

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 22:05

Re: Towers

The majority's opinion is that it is OP, especially To and Mully.
I think you should take our word for it Lewin :)
btw it was me who spammed those towers.
Saying that two persons (plus you) think they are OP doesn't mean that the majority thinks so.
I really think that they are just fine, because doing a huge tower spam is such a big loss in your economy ! But Lewin already explained it, it's not overpowered, it's a different tactic, a defensive one.
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-George Stain-

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 22:47

Re: Towers

Towers OP.. for good player is easy to do big army and towers that eat enemy army.. just boring thing...

and very important is that...

DEFENSIVE TACTICS > OFFENSIVE TACTICS (just becouse of towers, very very simple in my point of view, I have enought experience from game to say that)
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EDMatt

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 22:54

Re: Towers

The majority's opinion is that it is OP, especially To and Mully.
I think you should take our word for it Lewin :)
btw it was me who spammed those towers.
Saying that two persons (plus you) think they are OP doesn't mean that the majority thinks so.
I really think that they are just fine, because doing a huge tower spam is such a big loss in your economy ! But Lewin already explained it, it's not overpowered, it's a different tactic, a defensive one.
Do you want me to make a list of players that think its OP? I have at least 20 here.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 22:55

Re: Towers

Yes please, I'm curious. :)
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Lewin

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:03

Re: Towers

Well there's clearly a lot of people who think towers are good right now given the responses here.

Currently towers kill about 3/5. In the last release they killed 1-2/5. I don't see the purpose in a tower that kills just 1 or 2 enemies. Why have towers at all in that case? There'll be a mutator to disable towers, maybe you guys should play with that instead.

I guess you want it to be gg as soon as one player has lost all his troops and the other player still has a few left. Well in that case you might as well play without towers. Towers are to slow the enemy down, and stop them from matching straight into your village unless they have enough troops to get past the towers. I like it that way, and others do as well. It gives you a chance to recover after a battle. It means you can have more than one battle before the game is over.

This isn't a balance issue, it's just that you want to play the game in a different way to other people, where towers play an almost meaningless role and there's just one big battle after pt which decides the winner.

As for "you should take our word for it", I dislike that kind of arrogance that your opinions are the most important just because you're highly skilled. You like to play a different style of game, that's all. Other people don't. It annoys me that you revert to "we are right end of story" rather than presenting counter arguments and providing evidence (IMO that screenshot doesn't show much) Have you considered that some people might even enjoy sieges and storming towers with 100s of militia? If those people enjoy playing like that it doesn't make them any less important than you. I've personally had some great fun doing that in the past, before r3392.
There's no right our wrong way to play KaM, your way is just one.

Defensive tactics will always give you an advantage whether there are towers or not. Camping is effective in most games, the defender gets an adverse over the attacker.
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Shadaoe

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:14

Re: Towers

DEFENSIVE TACTICS > OFFENSIVE TACTICS (just becouse of towers, very very simple in my point of view, I have enought experience from game to say that)
You may have played more than me, it doesn't mean you're teling the truth :p It's not really an argument.
I believe that the "tower war" (secuing key areas of a map with towers) is a really interesting part of the gameplay, some maps are better than the others for that though, but it adds more strategy, and if towers missed more, it would be useless to do a few towers, so players tend to do more.
Do you want me to make a list of players that think its OP? I have at least 20 here.
20 players !!!??? That's almost the majority of the KaM Remake community ! Or not .. :p
The majority's opinion is that it is OP, especially To and Mully.
Judging by the server page at kamremake.com, I can see a peak of 88 players on the regular version (yes it's not the RC I know). even if we supposed that all these players were always the same online (which is totally not true), your 20 names aren't the majority. And it's without even considering the solo players, the huge amount of players that didn't play at the hour of this peak ... well, you can't say that the majority dislikes it, because the majority of the players didn't even touch the RC, so they can't have an opinion on this, your 20 players might be the majority on the RC (but not even sure), but don't think that your friends are the whole community (or the majority) just because they are "pro" players. You can't use this argument about the majority, because you know nothing about the opinion of the majority of the kam remake players.
Let's just take the number of downloads of the kam_remake_full_r3392.exe file.12355. Do you pretend to know more than a half of these players and are able to say that what the majority thinks ? I'm sure not. And please don't use the argument "but they don't play regularly, they don't play good etc...", because the tower's accuracy debate isn't only for you and the 20 persons you know they think the towers are OP, but for every kam remake player.
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Bo_

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:24

Re: Towers

IMO better players's oppinion is more important.
Don't ask me why, but it just makes sense. ;)
Kick fast, think Bo.
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EDMatt

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:26

Re: Towers

DEFENSIVE TACTICS > OFFENSIVE TACTICS (just becouse of towers, very very simple in my point of view, I have enought experience from game to say that)
You may have played more than me, it doesn't mean you're teling the truth :p It's not really an argument.
I believe that the "tower war" (secuing key areas of a map with towers) is a really interesting part of the gameplay, some maps are better than the others for that though, but it adds more strategy, and if towers missed more, it would be useless to do a few towers, so players tend to do more.
Do you want me to make a list of players that think its OP? I have at least 20 here.
20 players !!!??? That's almost the majority of the KaM Remake community ! Or not .. :p
The majority's opinion is that it is OP, especially To and Mully.
Judging by the server page at kamremake.com, I can see a peak of 88 players on the regular version (yes it's not the RC I know). even if we supposed that all these players were always the same online (which is totally not true), your 20 names aren't the majority. And it's without even considering the solo players, the huge amount of players that didn't play at the hour of this peak ... well, you can't say that the majority dislikes it, because the majority of the players didn't even touch the RC, so they can't have an opinion on this, your 20 players might be the majority on the RC (but not even sure), but don't think that your friends are the whole community (or the majority) just because they are "pro" players. You can't use this argument about the majority, because you know nothing about the opinion of the majority of the kam remake players.
Let's just take the number of downloads of the kam_remake_full_r3392.exe file.12355. Do you pretend to know more than a half of these players and are able to say that what the majority thinks ? I'm sure not. And please don't use the argument "but they don't play regularly, they don't play good etc...", because the tower's accuracy debate isn't only for you and the 20 persons you know they think the towers are OP, but for every kam remake player.
Dont be silly, I am talking about the new Beta release, dont post replies just to flame on me without reading what the topic is about..
do what you want, but I will still post my list tomorrow, Its up to Lewin and Krom after all anyway.

I call a vote!
Last edited by EDMatt on 06 Sep 2012, 23:30, edited 2 times in total.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:27

Re: Towers

- There are often more ways to get into one's village. In other words, the spammer has to build towers everywhere.
- Even if an entrance is fully blocked with towers, you still don't need to empty them all.
- Towers that are placed close to each other will often throw stones at the same target. I've seen 4 towers all throwing a stone at 1 militia.
- Towers slow down the builder's economy.
- In team games, massing towers is a bad strategy because the spammer will have less troops to defend his allies (his enemies are likely to target them, so yes, he is safe, but indirectly he makes his allies more vulnerable).
- You have map control because your army is bigger than the army of te tower spammer. So you can build towards additional resources while your enemy is locked in his village.
- If the spammer as a lot of towers, not all of them will be occupied by a recruit (because they have to eat, too).
IMO better players's oppinion is more important.
No it's not, everyone is equal here. No need to say more.
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EDMatt

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:38

Re: Towers

Lewin, what you are saying in your post is:
"I like this, lets do this!"
"You aint polite, things your saying arent good, even though you have experience!"
"Therefor your point is not valid"

Right?

The big problem is that we need to come to reasons..
A vote perhaps of those who played beta? something like that could work?
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Shadaoe

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Post 06 Sep 2012, 23:41

Re: Towers

Dont be silly, I am talking about the new Beta release, dont post replies just to flame on me without reading what the topic is about..
Oh I read the topic, don't worry, it wasn't at all a post to flame you, it was a just something I wanted to say because you can't know what the majority of the players think. The beta testers selection isn't representative (I explained it on the post you quoted, so I won't re-explain) at all of a "majority". These players have been asked to give their advice though, that's why I don't say anything about your opinion, because I respect the way you see the things about the tower accuracy, but it's obviously a dividing topic, and saying randomly that the majority is on your side won't be helping the debate, it has nothing personal, I just explained that.
IMO better players's oppinion is more important.
Don't ask me why, but it just makes sense. ;)
They might have a better idea on some topics from their experience, but it doesn't mean they are always right, and compare 20 "good players" to the number of downloads of the remake, I don't think that it's really representative.
Also, would you like in real life that a person who earn more money than you had 500 times the voting power you have, just because "he's so rich" ? I don't think so. It's not because you assume you're a good player that you can ignore the other players.
A game is made to have fun, so people who play for fun but don't have a lot of time to play don't have their word on the debate ?

Anyway, let's talk about the towers again, I really believe they're an important part of the gameplay, they kill an average of 3 out of 5 people in one shot, yes that's strong, but they can't move, so I don't think making weak buildings that can't defend you efficiently would be better, the game will be a lot more like "the one who wins the first fight wins", because if towers don't kill enough units, they will let a lot of people in, and it'll be so frustrating to have players inside your city just because the few towers you built didn't do any damage (I'm not talking about tower spam here)
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Leeuwgie

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Post 07 Sep 2012, 03:06

Re: Towers

It's an interesting discussion for sure. I like to respond on some things written here.
The spammer has a small army and some towers, that sounds balanced to me. If the spammer made crossbowmen instead of towers that would be a similar result, they still kill enemies from a distance. But nobody complains about crossbowmen campers.
To my knowledge there are no crossbowmen campers around so nobody can complain about it. The reason why is because of their main difference: hitpoints. The crossbowman has only 1 while a towers has 250. BTW speaking about 'some towers'. Yes I believe some towers are balanced. Are the 33 towers in the screen I posted some towers to you?
Well there's clearly a lot of people who think towers are good right now given the responses here.
Based on the responses here I count 7 people in this topic who don't like towers as they are now and 6 people who like it.
Currently towers kill about 3/5. In the last release they killed 1-2/5. I don't see the purpose in a tower that kills just 1 or 2 enemies. Why have towers at all in that case? There'll be a mutator to disable towers, maybe you guys should play with that instead.
Maybe you are right but for me it's not about tower accuracy, it's about tower spamming. I honestly have no problem at all with a tower that kills 5/5 as long as I don't have to break through an insane amount of towers to reach the enemy troops. If your goal is to get back to the original KaM please show me a screen of a mission in the campaign where the AI has builded this amount of towers.
I guess you want it to be gg as soon as one player has lost all his troops and the other player still has a few left. Well in that case you might as well play without towers. Towers are to slow the enemy down, and stop them from matching straight into your village unless they have enough troops to get past the towers. I like it that way, and others do as well. It gives you a chance to recover after a battle. It means you can have more than one battle before the game is over.
99% agreed here. It's just, nobody wants to play without towers because they serve a purpose. One of them is to prevent the enemy from scouting you. In multiplayer this is very important. And yes it makes it more fun if the game isn't decided in one big battle early after peacetime. The point is that there is no battle between troops before you find a way through the towers because most of your troops are killed in the process. As a reward your enemy can easely counterattack because you have no troops left. It's as simple as that.
This isn't a balance issue, it's just that you want to play the game in a different way to other people, where towers play an almost meaningless role and there's just one big battle after pt which decides the winner.
I think I speak for most of us if I say we rather want to win a game by clever use of our troops instead of facing a wall of towers we can't take down.
You may have played more than me, it doesn't mean you're teling the truth :p It's not really an argument.
I believe that the "tower war" (secuing key areas of a map with towers) is a really interesting part of the gameplay, some maps are better than the others for that though, but it adds more strategy, and if towers missed more, it would be useless to do a few towers, so players tend to do more.
It's likely a personal preference but I don't like tower wars myself. For the attacker it requires some strategy yes but I can't understand how it could add more strategy for the camper. And as I said before, with the improved food system armies are smaller and with towers being better they will be spammed alot more and that's exactly what makes them overpowered.
IMO better players's oppinion is more important.
Don't ask me why, but it just makes sense. ;)
Yes somehow it makes sense but saying things like this won't make you more popular here I guess. I'm not saying we are better players but we take the time and effort to test this beta so our opinion should be taken seriously of course.
The big problem is that we need to come to reasons..
A vote perhaps of those who played beta? something like that could work?
I think it's a good idea to let the people who play the beta vote for it.
They might have a better idea on some topics from their experience, but it doesn't mean they are always right, and compare 20 "good players" to the number of downloads of the remake, I don't think that it's really representative.
I think it's really representative. Atleast I thought we as beta testers are here to help solve problems like this. Even if there are only 20 of us.
the game will be a lot more like "the one who wins the first fight wins", because if towers don't kill enough units, they will let a lot of people in, and it'll be so frustrating to have players inside your city just because the few towers you built didn't do any damage (I'm not talking about tower spam here)
I think it's really sad that you give towers such an important role to play in your gameplay, so without towers you expect yourself to lose the game? If so it's better to play against equally skilled players instead, I'd say. But maybe I didn't understand your point completely. If you mean you don't want to spam towers but the towers you have do decent damage I totally agree here. We only need a way to prevent people building all those towers.

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Lewin

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Post 07 Sep 2012, 04:51

Re: Towers

Yes I believe some towers are balanced. Are the 33 towers in the screen I posted some towers to you?
You'll never have to fight your way through 33 towers, you can easily get to the village by coming within range of about 5 in that screenshot. If you sneak some troops in the right side you'll only go past 3 towers. And in a map like that you always have the option of attacking one of the spammer's allies, who will be at a disadvantage because the spammer won't have many troops to help him. Once you've defeated his ally you can just walk around the back of his village and all his 33 towers are useless. Only in the most narrow maps will you have to walk past a lot of towers, but I doubt you could ever be forced to go past 33 unless the player had built towers and nothing else.
Based on the responses here I count 7 people in this topic who don't like towers as they are now and 6 people who like it.
Which means it's unpopular either way, 1 person extra isn't enough of a majority to conclude much.
Maybe you are right but for me it's not about tower accuracy, it's about tower spamming. I honestly have no problem at all with a tower that kills 5/5 as long as I don't have to break through an insane amount of towers to reach the enemy troops.
As I said above you can avoid most of them, and I don't think 5 towers is an insane amount. As long as you're careful you can avoid most of them, then your enemy has wasted all that time and resources for nothing.
99% agreed here. It's just, nobody wants to play without towers because they serve a purpose. One of them is to prevent the enemy from scouting you. In multiplayer this is very important. And yes it makes it more fun if the game isn't decided in one big battle early after peacetime. The point is that there is no battle between troops before you find a way through the towers because most of your troops are killed in the process. As a reward your enemy can easely counterattack because you have no troops left. It's as simple as that.
Not if you use disposable units like militia to empty the towers.
I think I speak for most of us if I say we rather want to win a game by clever use of our troops instead of facing a wall of towers we can't take down.
Yes I agree, but I don't think it's like that. It just means you'll need a slightly bigger army before you can walk into the enemy village, you can't do it with just 6 troops now.
IMO better players's oppinion is more important.
Don't ask me why, but it just makes sense. ;)
Yes somehow it makes sense but saying things like this won't make you more popular here I guess. I'm not saying we are better players but we take the time and effort to test this beta so our opinion should be taken seriously of course.
Everyone's opinion is equal in discussions like this. I'd say that experienced players will know more about the game so they can present evidence of what they have experienced to the others here, but just saying "take our word for it" is arrogant and doesn't help anybody else understand your opinion. You need to explain and demonstrate to us why tower spam is a problem and why our counter arguments are invalid, then we might come over to your side. But just saying "we're right because we're more experienced" without convincing others just isn't how this community works. Think of it as like a democracy, if you want people to support you, you have to show them why your policies/ideas are best. Just saying "I'm most experienced so I'm right" won't get you anywhere.
I think it's really representative. Atleast I thought we as beta testers are here to help solve problems like this. Even if there are only 20 of us.
We've sent the RC to over 80 people, and most of those people send it around to all their friends. I'd guess we have between 120-160 people who have the release candidate. 20 people is a significant enough number to take your comments on board, but not enough to say "we MUST change this because the majority wants it".
the game will be a lot more like "the one who wins the first fight wins", because if towers don't kill enough units, they will let a lot of people in, and it'll be so frustrating to have players inside your city just because the few towers you built didn't do any damage (I'm not talking about tower spam here)
I think it's really sad that you give towers such an important role to play in your gameplay, so without towers you expect yourself to lose the game? If so it's better to play against equally skilled players instead, I'd say. But maybe I didn't understand your point completely. If you mean you don't want to spam towers but the towers you have do decent damage I totally agree here. We only need a way to prevent people building all those towers.
I don't think that's what he meant, he was saying that if you lose a battle and have almost no troops, then without towers that hit more than 1-2 units you've lost the game. Towers means your opponent must significantly outnumber you before they can overrun your village. That doesn't mean you'll lose the game without towers, it means whoever loses a fight and doesn't have towers has already lost the game because the enemy can just walk into their village even if they only have a few soldiers.

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