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Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 07:12
by The Dark Lord
That's why the market isn't that easy to use...
It's easy to say hey I'll just trade some coal for some logs,
but that means that your gold and iron production will suffer from this.
No. +1 coal mine = infinite timber.
When you're out of timber, it will still take time until the coal becomes a trunk, the trunk timber and the timber the building.
It's not just 1 click and hup free wood.
That's still NOTHING compared to what you have to go through doing it the normal way. When you're out of timber, you have to wait for your woodcutters to cut new trees. This might take a while because sometimes they still have to grow. Then, when you finally have some timber, you need to spend it on new woodcutters because otherwise you'll run out again very soon. If you (ab)use the market you can keep building whatever you want. All it takes is +1 coal mine.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 07:27
by Lord_Stronghold
well, market changed almost all manner of the original game. So I do not like market. But if u do not use while u playing against guys, who using it, your victory chances are much lower.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 09:21
by The Dark Lord
I rather lose than abuse the market!
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 09:31
by T*AnTi-V!RuZz
Bo, just out of curiosity: why do you write each sentence on a new line?
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 10:14
by Shadaoe
Of course, why would you trade for trunks if it's not faster?
Because the market could also be a slow building that is only for use in crisis.
I don't like the use of the market as it is now, it makes it too easy to skip some woodcutters and the essence of kam is to do as many buildings as you need to have.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 12:18
by Bo_
Bo, just out of curiosity: why do you write each sentence on a new line?
Haha just a habit. ;P
Market allows you to set up your economy faster.
In the end you'll have about the same town as a non-market user,
you can just have it faster.
I think building time already takes enough time.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 12:23
by Mulberry
Ben, thank you, it is a very nice and helpfull idea to make pollings like this one.
Maybe the question isnt 100% correct and easy to answer, but somehow the results shows a picture.
Anyway this poll isnt objective enought to understand wich things in marketplace should be changed and how it should be transformed.
If you want to know better about what is current problems of marketplace i would recomened you to follow qualified discussions in "feedback/discussions" and "ideas/suggestions" forums. Here, for example:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1107
I welcome everyone to join constructive discussion.
P.s.
Bo, your habit is very catching
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 13:57
by Siegfried
The more I use the marketplace, the more do I dislike it.
Marketplace is a seriously imbalanced. Imagine a swine farm that produces not only swine, but also timber or stone or gold or everything. Everybody would agree that this is imbalanced. Well, the marketplace actually is exactly this. It's a building that can produce every single resource that is imaginable in KaM. Why build a woodcutter when it's faster to trade the excess in stone or coal or gold for wood?
So the game is no more about balancing your economy. If you have a little more of a resource that you need but you need a bit of another resource, you simply go to the marketplace and trade. It takes away any skill of microbalancing your economy.
In the beginning, I only used the marketplace for its purpose: as a safeback I i ran out of any resource. Back in those time I liked the marketplace. It took me until a few weeks ago until I saw how seriously one can abuse this building and how severely people actually were abusing it.
Take the building and make it a place to trade between teammates. That's what it was meant to be. So if you really run out of gold, that's where your teammate might want to help.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 14:20
by EDMatt
The more I use the marketplace, the more do I dislike it.
Marketplace is a seriously imbalanced. Imagine a swine farm that produces not only swine, but also timber or stone or gold or everything. Everybody would agree that this is imbalanced. Well, the marketplace actually is exactly this. It's a building that can produce every single resource that is imaginable in KaM. Why build a woodcutter when it's faster to trade the excess in stone or coal or gold for wood?
So the game is no more about balancing your economy. If you have a little more of a resource that you need but you need a bit of another resource, you simply go to the marketplace and trade. It takes away any skill of microbalancing your economy.
In the beginning, I only used the marketplace for its purpose: as a safeback I i ran out of any resource. Back in those time I liked the marketplace. It took me until a few weeks ago until I saw how seriously one can abuse this building and how severely people actually were abusing it.
Take the building and make it a place to trade between teammates. That's what it was meant to be. So if you really run out of gold, that's where your teammate might want to help.
What you say is not true, maybe in theory it is like that but once you actually play the game you will find out the hard way that it is not that way at all.
According to you market place sounds like a farm/swinefarm/tannery which runts on infinite rock/coal/gold.
" It's a building that can produce every single resource that is imaginable in KaM" - to that my friend I would say... it produces every single resource with a great loss making the exchange not worth it most of the time.
"So the game is no more about balancing your economy. If you have a little more of a resource that you need but you need a bit of another resource, you simply go to the marketplace and trade. It takes away any skill of microbalancing your economy.
"
If this was true then everyone in the game would be producing alot of units and with a solid economy every game without a good town or a good economy, again this statement is false. If it was really all about the market then I would imagine some of us having 3 or 2 markets which never happens
In the beginning, I only used the marketplace for its purpose: as a safeback I i ran out of any resource. Back in those time I liked the marketplace. It took me until a few weeks ago until I saw how seriously one can abuse this building and how severely people actually were abusing it.
You are only covering the gain, but you never mention the cost and the after effect that each trade has on his economy, again not enough to prove anything about imbalanced market.
Take the building and make it a place to trade between teammates. That's what it was meant to be. So if you really run out of gold, that's where your teammate might want to help
all maps will have to be rebalanced to suit this, don't you think?
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 14:35
by EDMatt
That's why the market isn't that easy to use...
It's easy to say hey I'll just trade some coal for some logs,
but that means that your gold and iron production will suffer from this.
No. +1 coal mine = infinite timber.
When you're out of timber, it will still take time until the coal becomes a trunk, the trunk timber and the timber the building.
It's not just 1 click and hup free wood.
No such thing as infinite timber my friend.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 14:55
by Siegfried
@Matt
in the most recent games I've played I built 2 marketplaces very soon and then started to trade everything: stone for trunks, gold for sausages, coal for timber, gold for trunks, coal for bread, stone for skins, gold for horses. Just about everything. So yes, what I say is true (for me, not for everybody! Please don't read that out of my posts). If I had enough space, I'd build a 3rd marketplace as well because sometimes 2 are not fast enough. The serfs are already there as you need them to deliver stone to 35 laborers mid-game. So trading is much faster than waiting for a woodcutter or a swine farm. That's the microbalance that I meant. Of course, if you think of a serious mistake in macrobalance, than you're screwed either way. I agree with you on that.
It took me a while until I realized that I am severely abusing the market place as the imbalanced swine farm that produces everything. Since then, i dislike the marketplace.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 15:07
by EDMatt
@Matt
in the most recent games I've played I built 2 marketplaces very soon and then started to trade everything: stone for trunks, gold for sausages, coal for timber, gold for trunks, coal for bread, stone for skins, gold for horses. Just about everything. So yes, what I say is true (for me, not for everybody! Please don't read that out of my posts). If I had enough space, I'd build a 3rd marketplace as well because sometimes 2 are not fast enough. The serfs are already there as you need them to deliver stone to 35 laborers mid-game. So trading is much faster than waiting for a woodcutter or a swine farm. That's the microbalance that I meant. Of course, if you think of a serious mistake in macrobalance, than you're screwed either way. I agree with you on that.
It took me a while until I realized that I am severely abusing the market place as the imbalanced swine farm that produces everything. Since then, i dislike the marketplace.
But how much army did you make? and was your economy better then of those who play the game normally? I would say that you didn't produce much at all after peacetime. can you also post a replay please?
Again, someone dislikes market because they dont know how to use it.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 15:14
by The Dark Lord
Again, someone dislikes market because they dont know how to use it.
Oh come on, you know that's ridiculous.
Edit: 96 votes...
...How? Who? What? When? Where?
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 15:29
by EDMatt
The problem is maps, not the market, Cursed ravine is perfect example of this, same goes for golden cliffs.
Re: Do You Like the Marketplace?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012, 15:36
by Siegfried
@Matt:
Again: this is only valid for me. So for a fair comparison you'd have to compare games where I did not use the marketplace and those where I (ab)used 2 of them. Of course, 2 marketplaces do not make me better than high-skillers, I'm surely not good nor ambitious enough for that. But it makes me produce much
more troops. And that with the abuse of one single house type. That's why I call it imbalanced.
I usually don't save my games, so I don't have a replay at hand. But maybe you could as dicsoupcan for our last game on sunday. I think he kept it.
Btw: some dislike xbowmen, but that's not because they don't know how to use them, right?
*edit: yes, I agree that good map making would resolve many of the imbalance-issues that appeared all over KaM. But we don't have that many superior maps, so he have to deal with the average maps, too.