Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 10:05**

Regarding moving units from the town hall to the barracks:
I think it's a stupid idea to do stuff like make the rebel use a pike, the barbarian use two axes, etc. etc. Those are NOT the weapons they use, it would look stupid. A pike and recruit go into the barracks, and out comes a guy holding a pitchfork?

How does that make sense?
Also, I don't think a king would train a "vagabond" or "rebel" at his barracks. Those names imply they are AGAINST the king or some kind of mercenary/wanderer. (also the vagabond looks like a raider not a soldier of the king)

Regarding siege equipment:
I'd still rather not implement them at all. None of the discussions have yielded ideas that would work in my opinion, they'd all mess up the game balance. I am STRONGLY opposed to implementing something just because the sprite exists or because it was in TPR. Why screw up the game just so we can put a few unused sprites to use? I'd still be happy with the KaM Remake going no further than TSK, that was already a great game. Any additions need to be well planned.

Since the arrows of bowmen don't hurt your men too

They DO hurt your men. Try getting some soldiers to attack a building then shoot the same building with bowmen. The soldiers will slowly start dying (quickly if you have a lot of archers)

So when we all agree on the Catapult, only the ballista would needed to be discussed.

I don't agree, and I doubt Krom does either.

Regarding converting citizens to mercenaries:
We still need there to be a cost associated with it, so you can't just train 1000 farmers at the school and convert them all to rebels with the help of a few town halls. We could have a new building to manufacture the weapons and add new resources, but of course that involves making a lot of sprites.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 10:19**

I agree with Lewin on catapults/ballistas and general rule of thumb:

I am STRONGLY opposed to implementing something just because the sprite exists or because it was in TPR. Why screw up the game just so we can put a few unused sprites to use? I'd still be happy with the KaM Remake going no further than TSK, that was already a great game. Any additions need to be well planned."

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 10:22**

Regarding moving units from the town hall to the barracks:
I think it's a stupid idea to do stuff like make the rebel use a pike, the barbarian use two axes, etc. etc. Those are NOT the weapons they use, it would look stupid. A pike and recruit go into the barracks, and out comes a guy holding a pitchfork? How does that make sense?
Also, I don't think a king would train a "vagabond" or "rebel" at his barracks. Those names imply they are AGAINST the king or some kind of mercenary/wanderer. (also the vagabond looks like a raider not a soldier of the king)

You're right about that.

Regarding siege equipment:
I'd still rather not implement them at all. None of the discussions have yielded ideas that would work in my opinion, they'd all mess up the game balance. I am STRONGLY opposed to implementing something just because the sprite exists or because it was in TPR. Why screw up the game just so we can put a few unused sprites to use? I'd still be happy with the KaM Remake going no further than TSK, that was already a great game. Any additions need to be well planned.

I agree, but when well planned, they should be implanted

Since the arrows of bowmen don't hurt your men too

They DO hurt your men. Try getting some soldiers to attack a building then shoot the same building with bowmen. The soldiers will slowly start dying (quickly if you have a lot of archers)

So that's why all my men died...

So when we all agree on the Catapult, only the ballista would needed to be discussed.
I don't agree, and I doubt Krom does either.

Then we don't agree and the catapult still needs to be discussed

Regarding converting citizens to mercenaries:
We still need there to be a cost associated with it, so you can't just train 1000 farmers at the school and convert them all to rebels with the help of a few town halls. We could have a new building to manufacture the weapons and add new resources, but of course that involves making a lot of sprites.

And an other new building should be planned as well. And I think it would be hard to make a building for this.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 10:24**

I agree with Lewin on catapults/ballistas and general rule of thumb:
I am STRONGLY opposed to implementing something just because the sprite exists or because it was in TPR. Why screw up the game just so we can put a few unused sprites to use? I'd still be happy with the KaM Remake going no further than TSK, that was already a great game. Any additions need to be well planned."

I agree to, but when things are a great addition to the game, they should be implented. But I understand the fact that you'd be very happy when the KaM Remake was finished as TSK (without bugs). I can see that.
Additions could be added later. As expansion maybe.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 11:31**

... you'd be very happy when the KaM Remake was finished as TSK (without bugs). ... Additions could be added later. As expansion maybe.

That is almost my quote from year 2008

KaM Remake is planned to reach at least KaM TSK level without any changes nor radical new features.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 11:47**

Well.. after reading all this stuff after my SUPER LIST 8, I come in conclusion that developers prefer to make the game as REALISTIC as possible, including the sprite detail (like magic movement from siege weapons).

Any Sprites-Maker available? He will have to work a lot so we implement new things for a "Gameplay Expansion".
Because adding new elements to Gameplay, but with current sprites/mechanics... looks kinda hopeless.

As for the main topics (my 2nd suggestion try)

Siege workshop

New Sprite: 1 Barbarian pushing it (remove his axe) -> maybe "charge animation" has a sprite for it. Otherwise use a Recruit.

Ballista: Throws 1 large javelin. Average accuracy.
Great dmg vs units (1 good hit = 1 kill). Low dmg vs buidlings.

Catapult: Hurls x3 boulders. Low accuracy.
Great dmg vs buildings (1 good hit = -10 hp). Low dmg vs units.

Features (for both):
*Slow movement (1/2 normal) -> half the speed than a foot unit.
*Slow recharge (1/2 slow) -> half the time than a crossbowman.
*Friendly fire -> as with other Ranged units, Rule is also applied to Siege machines.
*Ballistic range -> has a min-max tiles value. I suggest 6-12 (so would fire first vs ranged).
*High cost -> 5 timber/5 iron (same as original).
*Maintance -> machines dont need food, but the guy who pushes it YES.

*No armor (0%) -> machines are very vulnerable to arrows/hits.

Townhall

We still dont find a way to make this useful... without being cheesy in Multiplayer.
Units: Rebel, Militia, Slinger, Vagabund, Barbarian, Warrior.

1º) Barbarian and Warrior must both have their own space and not appear switching "randomly" when last unit is trained.
In case programmers cant add a 6th space in Townhall, use Militia slot (since he can be trained at Barracks anyway).

2º) How do we obtain them? The idea behind this building is to have fast units to stop an invasion we cannot handle with Barracks training (due lack of resources, or long waitings for recruits).
I suggest combining Gold chests + Idle citizens -> If you analyze it better you are killing 2 problems in 1 shot.

I read Lewin is thinking to add the Untrain option... but I opin that sounds a bit Unrealistic.

So, lets imagine to convert those homeless/lazy citizens (fisherman*cough*) into quick armed Units.
Since you previously paid for these guys at School, then it would be like if all prices at Townhall cost 1 additional gold chest.
The Black Market operates at Townhall: you purchase those weird equipments such as Sling or Iron axe but at a high cost.

Gold Chests: all same but Militia -1, its absurd how all these "quick soldiers" start with +25% defense, but Militia is the only guy with 0% defense). Anyway all units need a soft rebalance -> for instance Rebels has +5% att to Cavalry than Lance Carriers.

Rebel: 1 /Militia: 1 /Slinger: 2 /Vagabond: 3 /Barbarian: 5 /Warrior: 5
Militia (1) <-> Vagabond (3): Militia has only 35% attack, while Vagabond has 40% att / 25% def (from where?) and moves fast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_an ... _Rebellion

*All IDLE citizens are treated as equal. No matter go enters the Townhall, he will be Re-trained.
*Training requires a TIMER (like School), to convert the citizen into a fighter based in the gold chests payed.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 11:56**

... you'd be very happy when the KaM Remake was finished as TSK (without bugs). ... Additions could be added later. As expansion maybe.
That is almost my quote from year 2008

KaM Remake is planned to reach at least KaM TSK level without any changes nor radical new features.

Yeah, I read that somewhere. Now, I reinstalled windows. (using parallels), I wanna play remake to!

edit: But I know how, so no worries.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 12:14**

I think it is possible to make siege weapons balanced.

In my opinion:
- Catapults and ballistas should be able to injure/damage both soldiers and buildings
- Catapults should do major damage to buildings and little damage to soldiers
- Ballistas should do major damage to soldiers (one hit kill?) and little damage to buildings
- Catapults and ballistas should take ALOT time to reload
- Catapults should have (minor) splash damage, also hurting your own units (it actually has this already as it fires multiple rocks)
- Since the siege weapons will be pushed by a recruit, it should still be vulnerable to arrows, so they require good protection
- Accuracy of catapults and ballistas should be very low

If you adjust the accuracy and reload time enough, it could be pretty balanced.

(Grammatical question of the week (:P): What is ballista in plural? Ballista? (Like sheep/sheep) or ballistas (looks weird but would make sense), or even ballistae (looks more like latin

))

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 13:37**

The problem with the ballista is that it originally is a Greek weapon, the scorpion, later improved by the romans and named ballista:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista
http://www.medievallifestyle.com/ballista.html

It did exist in the medieval ages, there were two main types.
The first used thin arrows with an iron tip, used to kill troops.
The second used thick sharpened poles, used to destroy wooden structures including palisades.
http://www.castles.me.uk/ballista.htm

My problem with the siege weapons is that they cost too much iron.
Their fire rate is also way too high.
I'd suggest making siege weapons need to "set up" and "break up".
It would require the charge button to act as the set up button.
Set up would mean that the siege weapon is stunned for a period of time, after that time you can fire.
If you want to move again, you'd need to "break up" clicking the button again and being stunned for a shorter period of time than when setting up, before you can move.

This would be a major disadvantage.
Also, siege weapons should be able to destroy other siege weapons.

Another idea:
If a siege weapon is attacked by infantry, the weapon will become neutral, if anyone would send a recruit to the weapon, it would become theirs.
But, you should also be able to self destruct the siege equipment, returning a recruit to your base. This is an option to prevent every weapon to be captured.

Thank you and good day!

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 14:18**

I think it is possible to make siege weapons balanced.

In my opinion:
- Catapults and ballistas should be able to injure/damage both soldiers and buildings
- Catapults should do major damage to buildings and little damage to soldiers
- Ballistas should do major damage to soldiers (one hit kill?) and little damage to buildings
- Catapults and ballistas should take ALOT time to reload
- Catapults should have (minor) splash damage, also hurting your own units (it actually has this already as it fires multiple rocks)
- Since the siege weapons will be pushed by a recruit, it should still be vulnerable to arrows, so they require good protection
- Accuracy of catapults and ballistas should be very low

If you adjust the accuracy and reload time enough, it could be pretty balanced.

I think this is the best suggestion I've heard so far. Of course we'd still need sprites for the recruit and the longer reload time (probably involving the recruit loading the weapon) I'm still not sure but I like these ideas the most.
GreatWhiteBear's idea of needing to "set up" and "pack up" sounds pretty good to me, kind of like the trebuchets in AOE. But obviously we'd need an animation for this.

(Grammatical question of the week (:P): What is ballista in plural? Ballista? (Like sheep/sheep) or ballistas (looks weird but would make sense), or even ballistae (looks more like latin ))

Technically it is ballistae (or ballistæ) Sometimes I say "ballistas" by mistake though, because ballistae sounds kind of strange.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 14:28**

Mmh, I suggested above something about Siege Workshop, and Townhall again.
I still think those Machines are being overestimated.

Because of their 0% defense and being super-slow, they die faster than a Militia.
They are also rather expensive and with low accuracy (already at KaM:PR)... I never found them cool you read why.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 15:44**

Maybe its an idea to choose what kinds of food you want to give to your troops?
I hate it when i'm almost out of saussage, then my troops are hungry and my saussages are all gone!

So like an option to choose what kinds of food you want to give to your troops?

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 16:56**

And Farmers should become a Rebel!

farmers & animal breeders

Maybe its an idea to choose what kinds of food you want to give to your troops?
I hate it when i'm almost out of saussage, then my troops are hungry and my saussages are all gone!

So like an option to choose what kinds of food you want to give to your troops?

Why not just give them what type you have in excess in the storehouse??

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 17:06**

I think it is possible to make siege weapons balanced.

In my opinion:
- Catapults and ballistas should be able to injure/damage both soldiers and buildings
- Catapults should do major damage to buildings and little damage to soldiers
- Ballistas should do major damage to soldiers (one hit kill?) and little damage to buildings
- Catapults and ballistas should take ALOT time to reload
- Catapults should have (minor) splash damage, also hurting your own units (it actually has this already as it fires multiple rocks)
- Since the siege weapons will be pushed by a recruit, it should still be vulnerable to arrows, so they require good protection
- Accuracy of catapults and ballistas should be very low

If you adjust the accuracy and reload time enough, it could be pretty balanced.

Agree 95%! The reloading time of catapults and ballistae should be VERY high. THAT is realistic. Imagine, the engineers have to calculate precisely the angle, etc to be able to hit the target correctly.
However i disagree with "Catapults should do major damage to buildings and little damage to soldiers"... If a one ton rock hits you in the head, or anywhere, where is the LITTLE DAMAGE in THAT ?
To balance that, you could make him shoot only one or two rocks instead of three.

PostPosted: **21 Dec 2011, 17:10**

It are the tiny rocks that splash off the building that damage you.

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