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Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 19:37
by MaxDeus
Conservative, yes that may be true (not ashamed, either). Like I just said a few days ago, Krom and Lewin intend on sticking close to the original TSK as much as possible. I think they can back me up on this, too.
It's kind of hard to believe that when the remake's AI intelligence is uncomparable to the original game, and the SP compaigns are significantly easier than the original game. (No offense to the developers...they know where I stand in appreciation for their remake).

Also, I honestly don't believe "there is any need" for the remake, but here it is...and it's very nice. I certainly believe that planning ahead of time is the key to playing well in KaM (as I have said somewhere else before), but this feature would make the game even more interesting, especially for MP.

You turn down so many new ideas that it seems you like the game just the way it is, and that's fine, but if you really feel that way, why comment in this thread? We all already know where you stand. :wink:
Yeah that idea wouldn´t fit in any case to the system of KaM and you can´t argue with something like for example "In reality, it´s possible to give an axefighter are horse", because they you could also transform Milita to Swordfighters "just" giving him new armory,a shield and a sword.
I specifically mentioned axefighters and sword fighters only, so I believe you missed my point.
Thanks

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 20:14
by pawel95
Conservative, yes that may be true (not ashamed, either). Like I just said a few days ago, Krom and Lewin intend on sticking close to the original TSK as much as possible. I think they can back me up on this, too.
It's kind of hard to believe that when the remake's AI intelligence is uncomparable to the original game, and the SP compaigns are significantly easier than the original game. (No offense to the developers...they know where I stand in appreciation for their remake).

Also, I honestly don't believe "there is any need" for the remake, but here it is...and it's very nice. I certainly believe that planning ahead of time is the key to playing well in KaM (as I have said somewhere else before), but this feature would make the game even more interesting, especially for MP.

You turn down so many new ideas that it seems you like the game just the way it is, and that's fine, but if you really feel that way, why comment in this thread? We all already know where you stand. :wink:
Yeah that idea wouldn´t fit in any case to the system of KaM and you can´t argue with something like for example "In reality, it´s possible to give an axefighter are horse", because they you could also transform Milita to Swordfighters "just" giving him new armory,a shield and a sword.
I specifically mentioned that you cannot "take away" weapons, but only "give". So this doesn't apply to my written suggestion. However, we could argue that a militia could be made into a scout, but still this contradicts my suggestion because I only mentioned a horse button, not a shield, armor and horse button.

We could argue that a militia can be made into a vagabond, but vagabonds are not creatable in the game anyway.
I didn´t missed anything! I said, that you couldn´t use even the "it´s realistic" argument, that is used like most often at kam ideas, points :rolleyes:

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 21:53
by Lewin
I don't think giving horses to axefighters would add much to the game. It would be the only case in the game where a unit's type can be changed, and I think players would then want to be able to change any unit type (why not if you can give axefighters horses already?). It may also upset multiplayer balance significantly.

Of course it probably wouldn't do harm to the game and any issues arising from it could be resolved one way or another. However I don't think it really adds much so I don't see why it would be worth the cost of programming it. A feature like that would probably take 6 hours of programming then maybe another 6 hours later debugging it after it's been tested and found to have problems (almost any new feature you add can cause a bug, even if it's in a different part of the game). It would add more weight and complexity to our code potentially making it harder to maintain in the future. There's lots of unanswered questions when you start programming something like this, for example, when the first axefighter gets his horse, he can't stay linked to the remaining axefighters because that violates game rules that we rely on. So he will need to split off, but then the player will end up with 12 individual scouts. So we need some way for them to link together, but we don't want them to be linking to the wrong group if there's another group of scouts nearby. All of this just made the job bigger and more complex, requiring more coding and more potential bugs. There will be lots more unanswered questions like this when you start programming it. You also have to make sure it works properly under rare unusual cases, like if the unit is fighting when he gets his horse, does he change unit type half way through the fighting animation? The game currently cannot handle that since all units have different length fighting animations, so now we need to go and rewrite the fighting action to handle this new feature too....

In short, adding new features is expensive for us (time to implement, time to maintain, added complexity to our code, etc.). Unless the feature really seems like it would add something great to the game then I often feel like it's just not worthwhile. It's very easy to say "implement this", "implement that" but in reality implementing it is very complicated and will have consequences way into the future in terms of fixing bugs arising from it and maintaining more complex code.

If we had implemented every little feature like this one that has been suggested on this thread then the Remake would be much more buggy and harder for us to maintain, and have lots of little features that make the game seem contradictory and even more overwhelming to new players.

So please forgive us if we are hesitant when it comes to new features. If you were the one responsible for implementing and maintaining them, you might understand why :P
It's kind of hard to believe that when the remake's AI intelligence is uncomparable to the original game, and the SP compaigns are significantly easier than the original game. (No offense to the developers...they know where I stand in appreciation for their remake).
We don't intend for the AI to be incomparably less intelligent, but the problem with comparing to the original game is that we don't know how it works because we don't have the source code (and even if we did it would be a lot of effort to read and understand it). All we can do is set up tests then watch TPR and see what happens. This is extremely time consuming and often doesn't yield any useful results.

It's very hard to watch the AI in TPR and try to write something that behaves like it. If someone can write down step by step instructions of how the AI should work under different conditions this would be very helpful, but I think you'll find it's very difficult to convert the behaviour into step by step instructions, let alone code.

There is also the problem of features that are mostly an improvement in the Remake, like the AI pursuing the enemy (e.g. your bowmen you shot them with) without stopping and waiting every 10 tiles. That undoubtedly makes the AI look smarter, but it can have unintended problems like being able to draw out the AI's army too easily. But we don't want to change this behaviour back to like it was in TPR since it would require duplicating code (currently it's like the AI right clicked on your unit so it's the same code used for human players), and it would make the game look a lot dumber with the AI stopping all the time. How do we solve cases like this?

We want to improve the campaigns, hence we have got pawel to test and fix the glaring bugs for us like AIs attacking at the wrong time/place, colours being wrong, etc. But many of the issues cannot be fixed by editing the campaigns. Our AI behaves very differently to TPR and fixing this is not easy. But that doesn't mean we don't want to fix it. So PLEASE don't imply that we made the AI less intelligent and the campaigns easier on purpose.

There's only two of us developing and just making the game engine work is a massive task in itself. Maintaining singleplayer, multiplayer, testing campaigns, testing/choosing multiplayer maps, maintaining/improving multiplayer balance, fixing bugs, organising nightly builds/testing, improving the map editor, it's just too much work for us to do all of it all 100% perfectly. We need help from the community, like with pawel fixing the campaigns. Remember this is a hobby project that we don't get paid for and we both have very busy lives to live (in fact I'm writing this before I go to work when I should be packing my lunch).

Seriously, if you can make a list of how the AI's behaviour is different in the Remake and what features are missing then it may help us in solving these issues and making the campaigns as intelligent and challenging as the original game. Or just describe what features the AI needs in order to be smarter and more challenging. It will probably be a lot of work to implement but if we at least have an idea of what needs to be done it will help.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 04:29
by Krom
Conservative, yes that may be true (not ashamed, either). Like I just said a few days ago, Krom and Lewin intend on sticking close to the original TSK as much as possible. I think they can back me up on this, too.

TPR, not TSK.

From the readME of the Remake:
Description
The KaM Remake mod is an attempt to reinvigorate the original "Knights and Merchants: The Peasants Rebellion" strategy game. Our goals are to make it work on today's computers and operating systems, implement a fully featured online multiplayer system, as well as to fix the many bugs in the game engine.
Otherwise we would have no TPR units and no fishermen :P
This a mistake in Readme (apparently since r2390) and we were going to fix it. It should read "The KaM Remake mod is an attempt to reinvigorate the original "Knights and Merchants: The Shattered Kingdom" strategy game". We have added some elements from TPR that fit (Fisherman, units, speedup) and some new (Market, proper MP), but it is still TSK in its core.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 07:18
by pawel95
Lol tell me then what else is a difference between tsk and tpr :P

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 08:09
by Krom
@Pawel: Town Hall, Siege Equipment, main menu?

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 09:35
by pawel95
Wow. It's still a remake of tpr. Maybe a modified one without th or siege yet (about the menu noone cares, you can say the remake icon looks closer to tsk than tpr :rolleyes: ?

It has the MAIN features of tpr. Wheb tpr came out, those were the features:

New campaign, over 15 new missions
New Tpr units
Fisherhut
(Townhall and siege workshop)

So all those points are included in the remake, except for the last point yet (don't think it won't have siege for ever, for old campaigns and missions) so why should it be a remake of tsk, seriously?

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 09:54
by Krom
Apart from rhetoric value, it also means that we are not obliged to include TH or SW "because TPR had it".

Here's diagram of features, let me know if I missed anything:
kmr_roots2.png
Full article: http://www.kamremake.com/devblog/how-ex ... te-to-tpr/

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 10:31
by sado1
Conservative, yes that may be true (not ashamed, either). Like I just said a few days ago, Krom and Lewin intend on sticking close to the original TSK as much as possible. I think they can back me up on this, too.
It's kind of hard to believe that when the remake's AI intelligence is uncomparable to the original game, and the SP compaigns are significantly easier than the original game. (No offense to the developers...they know where I stand in appreciation for their remake).
One thing is to change the gameplay, another is to fix things that are simply not clever enough. Also, SP is a kind of second class citizen, because devs focus mainly on multiplayer mode (not to mention, with constant changes in the Remake, SP missions have to be rebalanced all the time, and that isn't really a task for a dev, they have no time to play all the campaigns right before each release... that's what Pawel is trying to help with). No offence to those that feel SP should be prioritized a bit more, but I'd never agree to such a thing.

I like the idea as it is, but I agree with Ben that it shouldn't be implemented because people that can have a horse earlier enough should be awarded for that. Making a horse is difficult, and your city suffers from that a lot if you make the stables early (early stables means less leather units, more food needed, to have enough horses in 60pt isn't that easy, and that's a good thing). If you say that Ben is conservative, you can call me "never likes stuff that makes the game easier guy" :)
You turn down so many new ideas that it seems you like the game just the way it is, and that's fine, but if you really feel that way, why comment in this thread? We all already know where you stand. :wink:
Because, if he doesn't speak, the developers will not hear the arguments of the other side, and might implement it, and he won't like the fact it got implemented.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 10:49
by pawel95
Apart from rhetoric value, it also means that we are not obliged to include TH or SW "because TPR had it".

Here's diagram of features, let me know if I missed anything:
KMR Roots.png
Full article: http://www.kamremake.com/devblog/how-ex ... te-to-tpr/
Great, but it has still main content from the addon "the peasants rebellion".

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 10:52
by Krom
@Pawel: Correction: main content (>80%) is from TSK.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 10:55
by T*AnTi-V!RuZz
@Pawel: Correction: main content (>80%) is from TSK.
That's not what he's saying.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 11:09
by pawel95
@Pawel: Correction: main content (>80%) is from TSK.
That's not what he's saying.
It's just about the difference between those both. If the remake has everything, that tpr also has (expect for th and workshop) why shouldn't it been a remake of it then? :P

That correction doesn't fit into that discussion. It should be clear that an add-on has only additional features, so even more than 80% are realistic (time for programming, terrain and co) but it doesn't change the fact that the remake uses those additional content as the base of gameplay (fisherman in every single remake game)

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 11:17
by Lewin
How can it be a Remake of TPR when two of the signature buildings from TPR are missing? If it's a Remake of TPR we are obliged to implement the key features of TPR like the TH and SW. The Remake gameplay is much closer to TSK than TPR, because the TH and SW have a big impact on the way you play the game (you could play without the barracks at all in TPR, and balistas were often favoured over bowmen). The fisherman has quite a minor impact on your economy in comparison to the TH/SW.

Imagine if TSK and TPR both had working multiplayer. Imagine the gameplay styles that would/could be used. Which one is closer to the Remake? I'd say it's TSK without a doubt.

I don't see why it can't be a TSK remake with some features taken from TPR. In the same way that we invented some new features of our own.

Re: Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 11:22
by Krom
@Pawel: Correction: main content (>80%) is from TSK.
It's just about the difference between those both. If the remake has everything, that tpr also has (expect for th and workshop) why shouldn't it been a remake of it then? :P

That correction doesn't fit into that discussion. It should be clear that an add-on has only additional features, so even more than 80% are realistic (time for programming, terrain and co) but it doesn't change the fact that the remake uses those additional content as the base of gameplay (fisherman in every single remake game)
Because, if the remake has everything, that TSK also has (with no exceptions!) why shouldn't it been a remake of it then? :P
Think of KMR as a separate branch taking its roots in TSK and mirroring several features from TPR and some more from outside (look at diagram again)