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Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 18:18
by The Dark Lord
At first I thought this was a good idea but I'm not so sure anymore. Pawel's argument makes sense. Imagine the following realistic (at least realistic for me) situation: I want 10 sword fighters after pt, for the rest mass xbow, accompanied by militia and
bowmen (not archers, right?
). At the moment I could just set my smithies to produce 10 iron shields and 500 iron armour, as well as 10 swords and 500 crossbows. With the new change I might not even have 1 sword after pt; a bit more micro-management is required: first, the 10 swords need to be produced, then I can make crossbows. A large problem here is that you need to watch your smithies all the time. Why? Because you have to add new weapons to the queue
as soon as the smithy is done with the previous order. You can't do it earlier: if I would add 200 crossbows to the queue, that one last sword that wasn't finished yet will probably never be made.
But ok! Let's assume we did it, we have 10 sword fighters and we now set our smithies to produce weapons for 200 crossbowmen. So far so good, the end of peace time approaches, we have about 30-40 crossbowmen. End of peace time. Oh dear, the enemy has knights. Better make some pikemen quickly! Click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click. We now clicked on the weapon smithy and ordered 160 pikes.
I prefer click-click.
Maybe it would somehow be possible to scroll? Like when you send resources to allies in StarCraft II? This would allow players to change amounts much quicker.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 18:56
by Krom
Okay, so we are dealing with 2 approaches:
1. I want 100 axes and 50 bows. When the order is half done I'd expect half of weapons ready: 50 axes and 25 bows.
2. I want 50 axes and 50 bows, AND after they are done I want another 50 axes. When order is half done I have 25 axes and 25 bows.
So you see what is happening here: 1 is a single function, but 2 is a combination of 2 functions.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 19:41
by sado1
One brilliant idea to fix all your problems, while making even a bigger mess and having to implement totally different production order system, would be to make QUEUES. So, if you add 10 xbows first, then 200 swords, the game remembers it, and makes 10 xbows first, then starts making the swords. But a checkbox called "keep alternating weapons being made" (and someone better at English will actually think of a better term for that) would enable a mode which is similar (but not the same) to what we have now - if there's a list of 10 xbows, 20 swords, 300 pikes, 30 swords - then the game will make 1 xbow, 1 sword, 1 pike, 1 xbow, 1 sword, and then repeat the cycle.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 20:19
by H.A.H.
I've just tested the scrollwheel input for changing order amounts, and it works great: 1 is too slow, 10 is too fast, so I've set it to 5 per scroll 'tick'.
You can extend this idea to many other menus, for instance, at the school or baracks; scrolling through available, makable, units.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 00:37
by Ben
Oh no......!
Okay, at first, this seems like a great idea, but as Pawel and The Dark Lord have pointed out, this would actually cause players to have to spend more time clicking away in their weapon and armor factories. Not to mention that this would take a very long time to get used to, and many players that won't hear about this change (players not on forums) will be very frustrated on why their production is so lopsided.
No, I don't believe that his is good at all, in my opinion. I like the way it was before.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 11:37
by Thomas
We don't want to have an option to switch between percentages and exact numbers because that's just cluttering the UI with more and more options for very specific situations, we'd rather keep it simple and not confuse/put off players by making the interfaces look like you're
flying an aeroplane.
Yeah I also think that too many options will clutter the UI, but in this case I think there is no other possibility if you want to allow to switch between both modes. Let's wait for the Settlers 4 screenshot and then take a look on how they solved it.
Anyway, after reading other opinions I found out that I'm not the only one having doubts on this new system
I also think that both modes are very useful - each for a different situation. Still I think you should somehow allow to switch between both modes.
Yes, having 2 modes, one with % and one with exact counts sounds like a solution, but we would like to try RC with proportional production and see factual feedback too )
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 11:48
by The Dark Lord
Agreed. We added two checkboxes for the woodcutter; why not add them for weapon producing buildings as well?
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 13:26
by pawel95
@Pawel, would be nice to see a couple of screenshots. You know, it's hard to trust on word to someone who pops facts from air ("1 sec in TSK = 1,12 sec in Remake")
Sorry, but what´s exactly your problem now? This was just an
example from many fan made extra games. I didnt said anything that it is the reality in the Remake, have I? than pls quote me i have forgotten about it. I just commented the poststarte who said that in some certain missions the recruit time is different to the time in tpr,but how is that possible only in some missions not in all, when you haven´t changed the script, by transfering campaigns to the remake,right?
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 15:12
by Krom
@Pawel: Like I said - a couple of screenshots would be nice
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 15:39
by pawel95
Well when it will help for the Remake and the development, not like my objects. I will do that after I have installed it.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 16:37
by Ben
Agreed. We added two checkboxes for the woodcutter; why not add them for weapon producing buildings as well?
If implemented, I think that this will be the best solution. Even on lower resolutions, there still should be ample room for a couple of check-boxes on the weapon makers.
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 17:05
by Krom
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 17:11
by Ben
Yet another one of these
You know, I don't really think that the UI of the Remake is even close to overcrowded. Maybe there is a need to fear for over-complicated UI during the ingame (such as this), but I think we as a community have generally considered UI options to be taboo. Honestly, I don't think that adding a single checkbox to a weapon-maker will over-complicate it.
In fact, for people who will not hear about this proposed change, adding to the UI will be less complicating then trying to figure out "What the h*** is going on?!"
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 17:54
by Krom
@TDL, Ben: Why not add two checkboxes just for every building? Seriously, that sounds like a tiny change, we give player more control, we give more choices.. Well, in fact that is a bad thing. each time we add a checkbox we tell player "hey, we made a game, but we dont know how it should be played, you can figure it out as you wish". So lets find a way the KaM ordering should be made without checkboxes. Sequential, okay, but you should convince us it is more natural and more handy. On first part proportional wins, on second par - equal score.. which one to choose?
Poll: How many workshops and armories do you guys build?
Question: With sequential order picking, how do you manage armor workshop and order shields (30) and armors (100) ?
Re: Proportional weapons production
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 19:08
by Ben
Well, in fact that is a bad thing. each time we add a checkbox we tell player "hey, we made a game, but we dont know how it should be played, you can figure it out as you wish". So lets find a way the KaM ordering should be made without checkboxes. Sequential, okay, but you should convince us it is more natural and more handy. On first part proportional wins, on second par - equal score.. which one to choose?
This sounds more reasonable than "I don't want to add a checkbox" and I now understand your thoughts on the matter. Also, i now see that there is a slight difference in that the checkboxes on the woodcutter's hut apply to a strategy/ how a player wants to control the layout of his city, whereas checkboxes on a weapon/armor factory seem more like, as you say, "...we dont know how it should be played, you can figure it out as you wish."
Sequential, okay, but you should convince us it is more natural and more handy. On first part proportional wins, on second par - equal score.. which one to choose?
Poll: How many workshops and armories do you guys build?
Question: With sequential order picking, how do you manage armor workshop and order shields (30) and armors (100) ?
I don't understand this part of your post; which is unfortunate because I'm very interested in your thoughts on this subject. Could you please explain it again?
