Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **18 Jan 2014, 22:25**

In my opinion boost Xbows in that way (+dmg against shileds) can RUIN actual nice balance. If we want boost Xbows, boost them +1hp and +dmg against archers.

Yeah, that´s just the same thing what I wrote few times, to kill the ability of bowmen, to kill xbows with one shot "that often".

PostPosted: **18 Jan 2014, 23:57**

If crossbowmen had +1 HP they would take twice as long to kill. That means if you reach the enemy crossbowmen with your knights it would take twice as long to kill each one. Ranged units need to be able to be killed quickly in melee combat to encourage flanking and protecting them.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 00:54**

If crossbowmen had +1 HP they would take twice as long to kill. That means if you reach the enemy crossbowmen with your knights it would take twice as long to kill each one. Ranged units need to be able to be killed quickly in melee combat to encourage flanking and protecting them.

I'm playing KaM since 1998 and Remake since 1st release and playing 60pt games. So I can know what this game need. What's wrong to add +1hp to Xbows? You want to boost them because Noone need to produce them. Increase dmg to shielded units will move back this game into the past (means multiplayer game.. you can bring back starve system if you want go by this way....). I am very satisfied since last change with shielded units - it brings logic move to this game and open to creation of shielded units in high games. I really don't understand why you want boost Xbows in that way. It's really bad. Every multiplayer games will look like spam Xbows to win and it's bullshit. With +1hp and advantage against archers will make sense to do Swordsman etc. Why pikemen will be like swordmen against xbows? It doesn't have sense = everyone won't do swordmen and do pikemen(=more iron units) = no horse(maybe 6 in nice game etc.)

Solution:
So test it +1hp Instead of adding dmg or do somehing else. DMG is a bad idea. Or give them a hidden armor against archers or something like that. Give them +def from shield which have shielded units and it doesn't break a melee balance on them. They can be rush fast by horses and slow by archers = GOOD IDEA. Xbows only need boost def against arrows and maybe boost dmg +5% against all
(or +5%-10%dmg against iron units, because crosswbow bolt is situated to break iron armor) and it is not force people stacking them to milion.. THIS bring sense to make Xbows and NO SPAM them.

And many players want adding units to this game (for me it is unnecessary), but you can add Vagabund (militia on horse) to Barracs. And these people will be satisfied with them, we can say that you add the unit.

I only want balance in this game = good game and from you do moves which moves this game forward.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 02:08**

Maybe we should test it first before making suggestive conclusions.if the enmy has only pikes you have swors + bowsmen you have a great advantage.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 02:22**

Maybe we should test it first before making suggestive conclusions.if the enmy has only pikes you have swors + bowsmen you have a great advantage.

OK but model situation. The enemy has only Xbows = you have nothing. Because you will make more iron units if you are making Xbows+some pikes/axemen. So setup Xbow+Axemen > Swords+archers. So in the end of this you will lose actual game balance and using all units. This is not about pikes..

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 02:28**

Maybe we should test it first before making suggestive conclusions.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 03:51**

Maybe we should test it first before making suggestive conclusions.if the enmy has only pikes you have swors + bowsmen you have a great advantage.

I agree. Please post replays or simulation results instead of speculation. It's impossible to predict how a small change like this will affect the game balance. The nightly builds are quite stable now so it shouldn't be hard to play a few games on it and test out different army combinations.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 11:38**

saves.gif

Maybe i am blind, but i made some replays and now i cannot find them anymore. only the multiplayerasves are visible for me in the remake folder. only SavesMP, no "normal" saves anymore.
Or are they saved somewhere else now?
GR
MaxDeus

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 11:53**

You have installed in Program Files so Windows probably hid those files automatically in the virtual store. Look in:
C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\KaM Remake

The only way to prevent this is to not install in Program Files.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 11:58**

Thx. And here is the result:
3. Replayes (for better analysis). Watch them. There you can see many differnt ways, very crazy, and i tried it more often. in a few times the bows are better than the xbows. And one other thing, it seems, that the direction makes differenses also.

GR
MaxDeus

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 12:11**

In my opinion boost Xbows in that way (+dmg against shileds) can RUIN actual nice balance.

If the balance is nice and good, then why people usually make lots of sword fighters and bowmen and little of anything else? Other units are still used, knights are always good and pikes are there to counter them, but I barely see crossbowmen.

I'm playing KaM since 1998 and Remake since 1st release and playing 60pt games. So I can know what this game need.

The oldest player is not always the best one or the most knowledgable; on this forum you will find many players that have played this game for ages and know what they are talking about. With an argument like this you won't get very far.

What's wrong to add +1hp to Xbows? You want to boost them because Noone need to produce them. Increase dmg to shielded units will move back this game into the past (means multiplayer game.. you can bring back starve system if you want go by this way....).

I'm not sure, but are you aware that the boost which crossbowmen will get does not outweigh the +1 shield bonus? The +1 shield bonus for axe fighters, sword fighters, scouts and knights is only reduced to 0.5, but that is still higher than 0 (the way it used to be). So it is wrong to talk about 'move back into the past'. It is merely an attempt to achieve the ideal balance, and of course this will be tested and not just implemented in the next release. Things can always be made undone. I'm not sure what you mean about 'bringing back starve system' by the way.

I am very satisfied since last change with shielded units - it brings logic move to this game and open to creation of shielded units in high games. I really don't understand why you want boost Xbows in that way. It's really bad. Every multiplayer games will look like spam Xbows to win and it's bullshit. With +1hp and advantage against archers will make sense to do Swordsman etc. Why pikemen will be like swordmen against xbows? It doesn't have sense = everyone won't do swordmen and do pikemen(=more iron units) = no horse(maybe 6 in nice game etc.)

Allow me to do some speculating as well: with 1 extra hitpoint AND extra damage against bowmen, crossbowmen will become tanks. They will be hard to kill with melee troops and it will be impossible to kill them with bowmen. Why would that be good? Crossbowmen would swarm the battlefield, maybe even mass ranged (crossbowmen + bowmen) would work in combination with ~10 melee units.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 12:25**

I'm playing KaM since 1998 and Remake since 1st release and playing 60pt games. So I can know what this game need.
The oldest player is not always the best one or the most knowledgable; on this forum you will find many players that have played this game for ages and know what they are talking about. With an argument like this you won't get very far.

HAHA then Krom wouldn´t neeed any help of the community, because he knows the Remake longest of us all

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 12:26**

In the end I said the better is add Xbows shield def bonus against +1hp. Everyone can do mistakes. I only want good balance in this game. So I'm aware. Let's test it.

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 12:29**

I made some tests and in fact i can say: the most time the xbows win, but there are also a few times when the normal bows win agains the xbows. it is very different every game. you will see. the only thing that seems to be constant is, that xbows are a little bit better against other troops in general. But not much i must say.
GR
MaxDeus

PostPosted: **19 Jan 2014, 12:34**

I made some tests and in fact i can say: the most time the xbows win, but there are also a few times when the normal bows win agains the xbows. it is very different every game. you will see. the only thing that seems to be constant is, that xbows are a little bit better against other troops in general. But not much i must say.
GR
MaxDeus

NOTE: Best you can test such things in "real games" on normal maps, that are also played often in the normal releases. I often see "tests" from people where they just put some xbows,bowmen,sword and axefighters on a fighting map and watch the results. However you have to take realistic amounts of soldiers. In a normal economy game you will normaly have like 10-20 bowmen extra than swordmen for example.
By the way, when you want to "test" mixed armies (with nearly every type in it(except scouts and milita)) than it´s also the best way to test that in a normal 4vs4 Game. It´s only sad in my opinion that the biggest amount of players, who play a KaM Game like every night, don´t play on the nightly, but on the normal Remake Version

Otherwise we would get much better feedback, right now it´s not possible to find 8 people really, and play a normal Game on the nightly

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