Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:49**

Can someone explain me the sense of having a big coal field about 1300 coal and only 300 gold and 300 iron? There is no use for that 400 coal .

That is completely irrelevant. If the creator of 16 TSK wanted to have loads of coal, then that is his choice. Now, a purpose is MADE for resources you otherwise wouldn't use. That's not necessarily a good thing as we can see...

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:50**

Can someone explain me the sense of having a big coal field about 1300 coal and only 300 gold and 300 iron? There is no use for that 400 coal .

this is exactly what i meant, so what is the most logical thing to do with the 400 coal? you trade it since you do not need it. so i think you cannot blame the market 100%. If you do not get the chance to do it then the market cannot be abused. i honestly do not think the market by itself is the problem, it is merely a tool you can use.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:52**

I have thought in this subject... I like what Pizza wrote: It should balanced to go in either ways.. like in no-market or +market ways to build your city... so I think, that more than changing market values, we should better change woodcutter mechanics.

--------------------------------------------
I think he should work in spiral instead of so much random seeding. For instance he starts planting around his hut, and slowly proceeds to next available tiles radius... This will help to control his trees ubication (only talking about spiral seeding growth).

So when you think, woodcutter shouldn't keep planting more, switch to "cut only".

This suggestion also makes tree cutting faster since he will chop first trees around the hut, then go on with spiral trees maduration (those who were planted later, will madurate later, but in spiral order)...

http://www.dreamstime.com/green-spiral- ... 887275.jpg

The image shows "tree spiral" but this the pattern that planting should follow... Making great full use of space.
Besides, its quite exagerated, but a woodcutter has a working rate of 14 trunks (till first replanted tree grows again).

So you can make woodcutters work perfectly in reduced space, which needs IMO, the spiral planting mechanics.

NOTE: We all love the random planting from woodcutters, it will remain random, but he will organize the space, from the tiles closer to his hut, and after completing the first circle, he will proceed planting randomnly in next spiral circle.

Placement of woodcutters won't be an annoying issue anymore -> Spirals overall benefit compact forests.
Understand guys I want both ways (no/+ market) to be equally effective.

IMO the problem lies in the woodcutter planting mechanics. I hope Lewin/Krom can agree with me in this suggestion.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:57**

I hope Lewin/Krom can agree with me in this suggestion.

I hope they can't, because once again, a problem is made here. The way woodcutters planted their trees never was an issue before, and now we MAKE it one because we need a solution for something else.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 00:06**

But don't you think that my idea would make both ways effective for faster expansion?
Woodcutters spiral seeding also helps to have faster trunks cutted, since the next ones to his hut will be the first to madurate, and ready to be cut down... Both ways will be effective for faster base growth.

There won't be needs to say Marketplace is imba, since with this spiral planting the "normal way" will be equally fast.
Remember that Marketplace is a tool to keep playing the match when no-renovable resources are depleted...

But making woodcutters more effective (to catch up Marketplace performance) is possible.
I do believe... I proposed a good idea.

Lewin/Krom, you think this is acceptable change for speeding MP matches?
Without building market, and you aren't left so far behind.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 00:08**

Can someone explain me the sense of having a big coal field about 1300 coal and only 300 gold and 300 iron? There is no use for that 400 coal .
That is completely irrelevant. If the creator of 16 TSK wanted to have loads of coal, then that is his choice. Now, a purpose is MADE for resources you otherwise wouldn't use. That's not necessarily a good thing as we can see...

This is a bit relevant. I understand that someone might want to make coalfields bigger just to
-limit the space for fields
-make the map look nice somewhere
-because they WANT the players to abuse it
-because that's their map and they can do what the f... they want
but doing that while knowing that people will abuse it (unless it's intentional) is strange. Especially from the biggest market-hater out there, who says himself he makes too much resources at his maps, and doesn't even block market on any of his maps if I'm right

I'm sorry, I didn't want to call you a hypocrite... but I guess I just did

Also:

I hope they can't, because once again, a problem is made here. The way woodcutters planted their trees never was an issue before, and now we MAKE it one because we need a solution for something else.

But that's what I said before, I think it's the main issue here. I don't even care if market will be deleted or not, if something will be made to make woodcutters be able to provide a steady flow of wood at the game start. (or is it just me being too weak? can it already be done effectively without wasting too much time?)

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 00:12**

Especially from the biggest market-hater out there, who says himself he makes too much resources at his maps, and doesn't even block market on any of his maps if I'm right I'm sorry, I didn't want to call you a hypocrite... but I guess I just did

It's true, I totally didn't think of market abuse when I made Paradise Island (but I actually made it a long time ago!). But Majestic Waters will probably have market disabled.

Also:
I hope they can't, because once again, a problem is made here. The way woodcutters planted their trees never was an issue before, and now we MAKE it one because we need a solution for something else.
But that's what I said before, I think it's the main issue here. I don't even care if market will be deleted or not, if something will be made to make woodcutters be able to provide a steady flow of wood at the game start. (or is it just me being too weak? can it already be done effectively without wasting too much time?)

But what will happen then...?
People who adore the market with all their heart will build woodcutters too. Then they have even more coal to spend on wheat, skins and other stuff.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 00:13**

I think market is fine as it is, or maybe even more - I think even it should be possible to trade there iron bars with iron weapons 1:1. It's like 3:1 atm, it's definitely too low with comparison to horse (2:1). It should be 1:1 for horses and iron bars too.

About coal/iron ore -> trunks? This trade is not useful enough not, maybe 1 coal -> 2 trunks?

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 00:13**

Especially from the biggest market-hater out there, who says himself he makes too much resources at his maps, and doesn't even block market on any of his maps if I'm right I'm sorry, I didn't want to call you a hypocrite... but I guess I just did
It's true, I totally didn't think of market abuse when I made Paradise Island (but I actually made it a long time ago!). But Majestic Waters will probably have market disabled.

Also:
I hope they can't, because once again, a problem is made here. The way woodcutters planted their trees never was an issue before, and now we MAKE it one because we need a solution for something else.
But that's what I said before, I think it's the main issue here. I don't even care if market will be deleted or not, if something will be made to make woodcutters be able to provide a steady flow of wood at the game start. (or is it just me being too weak? can it already be done effectively without wasting too much time?)
But what will happen then...?
People who adore the market with all their heart will build woodcutters too. Then they have even more coal to spend on wheat, skins and other stuff.

so the easiest solution is reduce the amount of coal in my opinion.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 06:12**

You may have noticed I've been somewhat absent for a while, I was quite busy with university and had to put KaM to one side for a bit. I haven't read all of the posts on these topics but I'd just like to state my opinion:

The market is currently used too often for my liking. Trading for trunks in the market is often more viable than producing them with a woodcutter. I think adjusting the values of resources will help with this. IMO the market should be a completely optional feature. A player who uses the market a lot should NOT be at an advantage to a player who uses it very little or not at all. In the same way that you can play the game without using horses, or without making leather, the market is just another optional tech choice, it should not be a core part of every economy in my opinion. Hopefully you'll soon be seeing some changes to reduce the effectiveness of certain trades like coal/iron/gold -> trunks

As for the poll, I'm not sure how to answer. I don't like the fact that the market has basically become a requirement in order to be a top level player, but at the same time I think it adds more strategy and variety from the game. And if someone has a play style which involves using markets and trading non-stop, that's great, that's his unique playstyle. But someone who does not use the market should not be at a disadvantage to him. It's just another style of gameplay, like militia spam or whatever. Someone who uses only militia should not win most times over someone who uses no militia.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 06:26**

many people said that the market is a tool to keep the game going after the recources that arent endless are gone.if this is rly its intended purpose it seems best to me(and others have said this before i think) that marketplace would only be buildable after a certain time or when pt ends.this would stop people using it to boost their towngrowth like crazy.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 06:42**

The way woodcutters planted their trees never was an issue before, and now we MAKE it one because we need a solution for something else.

Well before we didn't need to build food, this means we need extra timber to build extra farms, wineyards, mills and bakeries.
And this in a rather early stade of the game.
This means also that we require more time to finish our build so that's probably why a lot of games have increased pt now. (65-70)
I like 60 pt games more and that's probably why I love the market, it makes it possible to finish a complete build in those 60 min.

So if market wouldn't be needed I wouldn't complain either but at this point I need it.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 07:54**

Yes, and since the marketplace was never around when the first coal fields came to their existance, it's imbalanced.

What I noticed is that people suggest that changing the maps might help, or maybe adjusting woodcutter radius or something. Doesn't this show the overpower the marketplace has? I have never seen anyone wanting to change maps because of farms or barracks. But the marketplace now demands a decrase of coal in all maps? Only because of a single building? We only have a few good ones. The marketplace converts some of those into bad ones. This is bad.

In that context, I had a sarcastic idea: let's introduce a new citizen into the game - the marketguy. It can run every building, so in the beginning he might be a woodcutter. After you have enough timber, you destroy the building. The marketguy then goes into the next gold mine and digs for gold. As soon as you run out of gold, the marketguy might go into barracks and you can make a soldier out of it. Sounds overpowered? Well, then let's say you need 2 or 3 gold chests to train the marketguy. So we can finally claim it's balanced. (That's basically what they tried in settlers adk - a game that flopped miserably and killed the settlers' 'traditional line')

What I see is a decrease of the need to balance your own economy. Before, you had to plan your city in a balanced way. So for example 1 farm was able to deliver corn to ~1 swine farm. If you had longer distances, you needed more farms, if you could keep the swine farm next to the farmer, you could even fill additional ones. You had to consider roads and the number of serfs. If you did not do it you kept collecting too much corn which was just a waste of spent resources. The marketplace lowers the significance of these optimization. Because now if you have too much corn, you can make a tree chunk out of that. The excess resources are not lost anymore.

So yes, it's this particular gameplay change which comes along with the marketplace in its current form that I don't like. Because it takes out complexity rather than adding.

I love the building and would like to see it used for trading between players

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 12:22**

Siegfried, (here we go again

) 1 building changes a lot. Well coal needs to be added to the maps because of 1 building,
THE COAL MINE, but does that make coal mines OP, because they modify the way maps should be made?
You will have to change a map if there aren't enough farmlands, you will have to change a map if there's no place to build a 4:4 building.
You will have to change a map if there's not enough gold, not enough rock, not enough treetrunks...

In kam EVERY building is important and needed, except maybe the wineyard, fisherman's hut and stables.
Why do you all keep saying that market replaces every other building? Well it can replace any building but 2.5 times slower or more expensive.
(Except for horses maybe, but that's not the market's fault people complained about stables a long time before the market.)
For that reason people don't replace buildings.

And again the same mind of most of the anti-market players:
before it was like this so everything that changes something the way it was before is bad.

PostPosted: **07 Nov 2012, 12:59**

(here we go again )

And we still speak to each other. Isn't that a success all by its own?

I totally see your point here. Still my experience makes me come to the conclusion, that marketplace is seen as very important for map design. In my opinion, it's too important. IMHO coal should be added because of gold, iron, blocking accessibility and map aesthetics. Not for making the marketplace important or not. This gives the marketplace a role that it does not deserve, especially because you have to consider marketplace in almost every part of your map: the amount of coal, gold, iron and stone; even the amount of trees is important.

Maybe we should try to not speak in extremes? The marketplace does not replace other buildings - neither is it the evil per se. It does not make a allmighty player out of an average one, but it still affects the amount of troops you recruit and therefore your skill.
It changes gameplay and I tried to make clear why I don't like the way it does. I see a certain simplification of the game which I dislike.

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