Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 10:58**

@Krom: do you think the remake is not 'fair' in this view in it's current state?

From my experience, the random plays only a very minor or even negligible role. You notice it when you have only 2 or 3 soldiers left.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 13:21**

1. decrease the direction multiplicator, maybe to something like 1 (front), 1,5 (diagonal) 2 (side) 2,5 (diagonal behind) 3 (behind)
But that would mean a) that you get away from the battle mechanics that make KaM so unique towards a system like AoE where damage is don proportionally and b) that could only lower the problem, not abolish the critical hit; in this example, the maximum firepower would still be 525%

I think, this is not a whole true. It is good to realize, how this 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 multiplicators work in kam in real situations. In common situations,
it is not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but something like this 1, 2, 2.3, 2.3, 2.3 or 1, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8, 1.8 or 1, 2, 3, 3.2, 3.2 , because of max damage limitation.
So, when i will change these multiplicators to 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 , it will be always that numbers and i think that it will be also more balanced, and
just with these change, it will contain a beauty, because better position you will get, better damage you will do. In normal kam, it is a key to get
the second position(which you always get with pack of units), to do incredible double damage and then you dont need very much to get better position.
But i must also mention, the real situations, where in normal kam, it is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 . It is in general, when very strong single unit attacks pack
of weak units, that single unit will die very quickly, but i again see a beauty, when a good armored unit is capable to resist something, so damage x3 is enough.

So i maybe found a good balance between long fights, random fights and beauty of kam fighting system. I was multiplied life of all units by 1.5. Decreased multiplicators from positions
to 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3. Damage will be maybe 0% - 200% to ensure random fights, maybe slightly more min damage, for example 10% - 190%.

Ok, lets look at the result. So, for example, how many hits need lancer to kill scout from back side? He needs (400*2*1.5)/(80*3) = 5 hits in average.

And how many hits need 3 lancers fighting with one Knight from front side and two from front diagonal side? It is (400*3*1.5)/(80*1+2*80*1.5) = 5.625 hits in average.

How many hits need 5 militias to kill one Knight, when every militia fight from else position(so, all 5 positions are used)? In average, they need
(400*3*1.5)/(35*(1+1.5+2+2.5+3)) = 5.14 hits. And it is nice in my opinion, when armored unit is a little resistant.

How many hits need a swordsman to kill militia from back side? He needs (300*1.5)/(55*3) = 2.73 hits in average.

How many hits need a halberdier to kill a scout from back side? (400*2*1.5)/(115*3) = 3.48 hits in average. I know, that it can be sometimes
only 2 hits, but it can be also sometimes for example 6 hits. In normal kam, it is always 4 hits, so my system is more random, its randomness is
not canceled by any other factor.

Most devastating attack can do Barbarian from back side to Militia. He needs (300*1.5)/(75*3) = 2 attacks in average. And he can kill militia in one hit
only when the game selects the largest number from 0 - 150. So, only once per 150 cases he will kill militia in one hit from back side. So, there is
a nice limit of one attack to kill which you won't see in the game practically.

I think, it is now balanced.

Edit

I realized, that with 0% - 200% or 10% - 190% , fights would be still very random, even i multiplied life of units by 1.5. I think, 50% - 150% will ensure a little random fights and also not too long fights. So, the best critical hit, that can be done in normal game is absolutely lucky halberdier, that fights with scout form back side. He need at least 3 hits to kill him. So, problem with strong critical hits has been solved.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 16:37**

Some people are giving ideas to improve the game and the ideas they spent a lot of time working on are received by "You never played the game." and "You're not a pro super strong player !".
I don't think it's the best way to find a balance.
The remake team did the effort to release a patch to test some people's idea for the +1hp thing, why wouldn't some other ideas be worth testing before saying it's bad ?

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 16:50**

Some people are giving ideas to improve the game and the ideas they spent a lot of time working on are received by "You never played the game." and "You're not a pro super strong player !".
I don't think it's the best way to find a balance.
The remake team did the effort to release a patch to test some people's idea for the +1hp thing, why wouldn't some other ideas be worth testing before saying it's bad ?

The wrong is that he isn't giving ideas, he wants to rewrite the whole fighting engine, but there is no need for that. He has never played Remake, he bases his "ideas" on what he reads on this forum, and he only can see what is bad with it. That we try to give ideas to create a really balanced fighting system, and he surely thinks that the current fighting system is bad. But it isn't, everyone has different opinions about it, and Pepa just can't understand that he can't see things clearly if he doesn't play this game.

This isn't an idea to improve, he wants to completely remove the fighting system (he writes as he really wants to), and implement his own thougts. But everyone knows that his thougts are mainly wrong.

@Pepa

Why haven't we had some games today? You said we could have...

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 16:59**

The wrong is that he isn't giving ideas, he wants to rewrite the whole fighting engine

That's still an idea

This isn't an idea to improve, he wants to completely remove the fighting system (he writes as he really wants to), and implement his own thougts. But everyone knows that his thougts are mainly wrong.

There are better ways to say that you don't like an idea than saying that you can't speak if you're not a "pro" player (and btw, none of the KaM players could be called pro if we really think about the real meaning of this word)

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 17:07**

Says no to rewriting! KaM is an old game and needs to stay as it was! We won't need much changing imo.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 17:23**

There are better ways to say that you don't like an idea than saying that you can't speak if you're not a "pro" player (and btw, none of the KaM players could be called pro if we really think about the real meaning of this word)

I am not a pro, and I don't expect Pepa to be a pro, I only wanna let him play, because he won't see things clearly if he only knows Remake from our posts. Am I wrong Shadaoe? It is good if he wants to contribute development with his ideas, but this kind of contribution would need game experience, not only the knowledge of the original KaM imo. I can be wrong too, of course, so correct me if I am.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 17:37**

Some people are giving ideas to improve the game and the ideas they spent a lot of time working on are received by "You never played the game." and "You're not a pro super strong player !".
I don't think it's the best way to find a balance.
The remake team did the effort to release a patch to test some people's idea for the +1hp thing, why wouldn't some other ideas be worth testing before saying it's bad ?

Siegfried and pepa999 didn't share a single match to express opinions, they just started argumenting in base with the "+1 hp", but empty statements, since they didn't upload any replays or testing fields (singleplayer test map).
To convince someone is better to show your tests in real time, than just spamming percentages in "big size + bold" fonts.
I myself uploaded a testing field, which everyone could appreciate.
For me in this moment, counts more the opinion from Da Revolution and George Stain, than pepa999 or Siegfried.

The reasons is simple: They tried a few games with the +1hp patch, and also FELT the same as we all did, we were close, VERY close for the "absolute balance" feeling. Something needs a tweak (I admit that), but is ridiculous (at least for me), to redo entirely new combat resolutions...

Analyzing Analizers: I'm not against that they present their ideas. I like reading new, but good ideas, from other persons.
*Siegfried: First, he complained. Childish way of presenting analysis (big bold size percentages, as if he who writes bigger holds the truth). Sheer percentages. He didn't propose anything concrete, just wondered between many possibilities.

*pepa999: First, he appears from no-where. Second, he complained. He designs a combat system which originally resembles to Diablo 2 Expansion, with the 1/300 life bars, and slow 1 hp regeneration. Also the damage resolution looks inspired in the Lightning Attack from Diablo 2. I was actually waiting to see if he would add Mana to KaM.

I apologize to George Stain, for me being rude with pepa999.
------------------------------------------------------------

Presenting concrete alternatives:
a-1) Shields: It would be possible something like +0.5 hp for units with shields?
a-2) Shields: Instead of +hp... What if units with shields have regeneration 1 per 7 seconds?
It would emulate the "+1hp" only if unit survives enough, also -1/3 (7 instead of default 10), can make bigger groups of shielded troops to last longer against enemy firepower.
So if units have 3 hp +1/3 faster regeneration, some will emulate having 4 hp during fight (vs militia/lancers spam).

b) Archers: I find them overall fine, just that in practise you know you can withdraw Xbows easier if offensive went wrong.
So these units could be sligthty better... I have a hunch about what to change.
1. Chance that the arrow will miss:
For bowmen: Chance to miss = 0.26+(2*target_speed)
For crossbowmen: Chance to miss = 0.29+(2*target_speed)

What could happen if bowmen = 0.24+(2*target_speed).
I feel that 0.05 significative difference compared to Xbow, could be interesting.

c) Storm attack: First troops accomadate into leader's direction (1,5 sec) and next all charge together.
But is not enough. An idea I have now is giving a multiplier x3 to first attack (charge impact).
Multiplier x3 makes Axemen/Swordman hit an iron unit with full impact (as if that iron unit had armor 1).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Brainstorming topic I found this old response from Lewin respect healing soldiers (related to monks ideas).
I just hope that Lewin and Krom remember these old thoughts... Before giving hopes to twisted wishes.

I have to agree with GreatWhiteBear on all points except about mending soldiers, that's unnecessary because hit points are restored automatically. (and there's only 1-4 hit points anyway) KaM is special because it doesn't have hit point bars and the combat is a lot less predictable than games like AOE where each strike reduces a fixed number of hit points so you can always tell the outcome of 1vs1 fights before they even begin.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 17:38**

I am not a pro, and I don't expect Pepa to be a pro, I only wanna let him play, because he won't see things clearly if he only knows Remake from our posts. Am I wrong Shadaoe? It is good if he wants to contribute development with his ideas, but this kind of contribution would need game experience, not only the knowledge of the original KaM imo. I can be wrong too, of course, so correct me if I am.

True, the more you play, the more you know the mechanics and have a better overview of the whole system, but since the remake is at this moment based on the original TSK concerning the fighting mechanics, I think you can give ideas from a TSK/TPR game experience that can work on the remake too, it won't be perfect maybe but you can do some little adjustments.
I'm aware that a whole rewriting of the fighting code can't be tested like a "little" hp change, but the thing I'm against is saying to someone that his idea is bad in certain .. nasty ways by using the "you're not pro" thing, which is just rejecting ideas without having to say why, just for the sake of helping your ideas being implemented by ruining other's propositions.
(The you is a global word here, treat it like "one's")

Edit :

Siegfried and pepa999 didn't share a single match to express opinions, they just started argumenting in base with the "+1 hp", but empty statements, since they didn't upload any replays or testing fields (singleplayer test map).
To convince someone is better to show your tests in real time, than just spamming percentages in "big size + bold" fonts.
I myself uploaded a testing field, which everyone could appreciate.
For me in this moment, counts more the opinion from Da Revolution and George Stain, than pepa999 or Siegfried.

The reasons is simple: They tried a few games with the +1hp patch, and also FELT the same as we all did, we were close, VERY close for the "absolute balance" feeling. Something needs a tweak (I admit that), but is ridiculous (at least for me), to redo entirely new combat resolutions...

I believe real-time testing is as important as dealing with the maths behind the combat systems.

If one (Siegfried here) shows something with maths, why wouldn't it be fine ? Because all the combat system is based on math formulaes, so both testing and calculating things with math is good.
Also, Siegfried, from what I read, did some actual tests and gave us the results.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 18:07**

Whatever... Let's stop with the personal issues. We are misleading this thread.
I have expressed what many other are thinking. I'm nothing more than an innocent voice.
------------------------------------------------------

Let's concentrate in the new proposals I offered. Read [a-1, a-2, b, c] from large post.
The balance is close, but we have to knock neighbours doors, not next neighbourhoods.

And I hope Lewin/Krom keep the good work with KaMR (a deep engine surgery will make her horrible).

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 19:08**

I find it ridiculous that someone refuses to play the game and makes a new fighting system for this game. I think that pepa would really benefit from playing some games. I know how I thought about KaM economy in my crappy beginnings, and how it changed while my gamestyle improved. Pepa's mathematical research might be nice, but there's what Krom quoted from Sid Meyer's speech:

Player wants to see "good" randoms that look fair, not the mathematically correct "randoms". It's especially important in MP where players compete with their skills, not with a rolling dice.

If you're not convinced that playing the game would make you think different pepa, you could at least do that for gaining some credibility ("see, I played some games, I saw how this stuff works, it didn't change the way I think about the economy"). Especially try to make some knights so you see it's difficult and should be rewarded, that seems to be the issue for some people there.

However, I'm not going to tell anyone that his ideas are crap (Matt said that) or that someone is not intelligent enough to understand someone's ideas and that his intelligence is barely enough to play the game (that was pepa's response)... If you don't agree, please either be silent or provide rational arguments about the idea being wrong. If the idea sucks so much you can't help but think it's crap, ignore it and politely voice your disapproval (like Bo did), so everyone knows your opinion is that the game will be destroyed by this idea.

Why I'm telling you what to do and what not to? I want to help you, in case you present YOUR ideas later. If you would stick to these simple rules, chances that someone will read about your ideas, and provide CONSTRUCTIVE criticism will be bigger. Also, chances for flamewars and personal arguments will greatly decrease, which would be a good thing for everyone here, wouldn't it?

Also, we still forget about organizing the chat session for discussing this stuff. What about setting an extra KaM Chat time tomorrow or at Monday for that? (Unless I'm mistaken everyone forgot about yesterday's chat) If the idea is ok to most of you involved I'll write about that in KaM Chat topic too.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 19:42**

Also, we still forget about organizing the chat session for discussing this stuff. What about setting an extra KaM Chat time tomorrow or at Monday for that? (Unless I'm mistaken everyone forgot about yesterday's chat) If the idea is ok to most of you involved I'll write about that in KaM Chat topic too.

I did not forget about it. I was tired after week introduction at uni. I could not make it for two weaks for this reason. I will be there tomorrow. I can't be there on monday due to college. Tottaly off-topic

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 19:58**

I was tired after week introduction at uni.

9 DAYS not just a week

Edit: already thought that, just delete this one.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 21:30**

FYI: We'll be watching this topic closely and anything that doesn't have to do with this discussion and/or insults, etc. will be deleted.

PostPosted: **01 Sep 2012, 22:38**

Hi, I have whole new idea of fighting system in kam remake. In real game, there is nearly not change from old system to this new system, but in terms of computing balance
of units, this system will be very clear and very simple. I read some posts about math in the balance of units and many people was disgust by it,
and i think that rightly. Because in my opinion, current system is unnecessarily complicated and when we trying to find balance between units, it
is too complicated to computing real relative strength between units. Nevertheless, i think a lot of people will reject this idea even at this point
of this text, and i thing again that rightly, because in spite of all, kam fighting system conceals unique beauty and i also like that nice things
on this system. I would like to name this nice things to calm people(and of course myself), that they will not lose this nice things by this
new system, but only lose bad things. So, there is main three things, that is nice on kam fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- It is very heartwarming, that when you win the battle, you take all your units to the next battle fully regenerated

2) A little random fights
- it is exciting, that you dont know how will end a specific fight, only approximately, and it is possibble even to beat knight with militia

3) Numerical superiority winners
- next very nice thing, that when you for example stray into the pack of militia even with the best unit in the game, knight, militia will kill him with
unbelievable speed.

Ok, this three points are base of my new fighting system, but this system, as you can expect, exclude bad things from old system. There is main
two that things:

1) Regeneration affect balance between units
- It is very annoying to take into acount regeneration of units when making balance changes. It ends with many scary math formula, that nobody
dont know what it exactly means in game balance in real game situations, and even minor change of for example life points will make uncontrollable
diference between strength of units.

2) Unit can do maximum damage of 1 life point
- This is another unnatural thing, that cause many problems when you balancing units.

So, now, i will explain, how i solved individual parts of fighting system:

1) Regeneration
- Regeneration will only serve to achieve goal, that when you win one battle, you go with your remaining units fully regenerated to another battle.
And in fight, regeneration will help meaningless. Exactly, Unit is fully healed in 5 mins. So, every seconds, 1/300 of Max Life Points is recovered.

2) Life and Damage
- Because in normal Kam, Unit for example with attack of 55 will theoretically do damage of 0.55 x ONE LIFE, so in my new fighting system, life
is multiplied by 100 and Unit with 55 damage will do damage of 55 Life and balance between units remains theoretically unchanged from old system
to new system. And because we want a little random fights, unit with damage of 55 will do random damage from 0 to 110, that will be 55 in average.

3) Armor and Damage from different sides
- It remains totally unchanged. For example Unit with attack of 55, that attack other unit with 2 armor from back side, will do damage
of 0 - 110x5/2 , so 0 - 275

In conclusion, there is a list of Unit Stats in my new fighting system:

Militia
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 1

Axefighter
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Swordsman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Scout
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Armor: 2

Knight
Life: 400
Regeneration: 1.33(Exactly 4/3) Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 110
Armor: 3

Lancer
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 50
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 160
Armor: 2

Pikeman
Life: 300
Regeneration: 1 Life per Second
Attack: 0 - 70
Attack vs Horses: 0 - 230

I think, this simple fighting system would be good base to making kam balanced. Lets see, how easy is to computing result of fight
for example 1vs1 Knight vs Lancer. This number (300*80*2)/(400*55*3) indicates, how much life will lancer destroy from Knight when
he die. it is 0.727, so knight will have only 0.273 of his maximum life(so 0.273 x 400 = 109 Life) after lancer die. Or we can calculate, how many hits need
lancer to kill knight, when fighting from diagonal front side. This number indicates it (400*3)/(80*2) = 7.5.
And from Back Side, it is (400*3)/(80*5) = 3. And similar easy calculations are main symbol of this fighting system.
WTF did i just read, davai dasvidaniya
seriously.. did you ever play online?
you must realize how time consuming it is to train knights.

MODBREAK: Nobody cares.

So for the moderator who edited this:
Well more people give positive response about what Matt said than about Pepa, so don't abuse on the fact that you're moderator to try to give a public oppinion.
IMO that's just pathetic.

MODBREAK:
Off topic discussions and insults will be deleted/moderated, as happened in this case. If people can't take the time to be polite in their arguments and remain on topic, others should not have to take the time to read what they wrote. The moderators are all highly trusted and remain impartial in all moderating decisions, they act in the best interested of a polite constructive discussion and a friendly community, NOT for personal interests. Accusing the moderators of abusing their power will not be tolerated.
You have been warned.
Lewin.

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