Knights and Merchants.net Forum

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:33**

@ Ben
That quote from my post sounds for me more like if i would come to the point that we have to delete the market later anyway which isn´t really my oppinion.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:36**

But for all the guys who want to higher the values of the market: There will be everytime a trade in market which seems imbalanced. If you higher the value of one ware there will appear a new "overpowered" trade.
Then people will say again that we have to change the value of that ware. This will go on and on until noone uses market anymore because the trades are too expencive.
Indeed. And that's the point when the market has reached its real purpose: to help out in emergency cases.
But you think you will have that many resources to trade in an emergency case to help you out of it?

Yes. There is always something.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:49**

But you think you will have that many resources to trade in an emergency case to help you out of it?
Yes. There is always something.

Hm i think i would be really dejected if i would be out of wood because there aren´t enough startingtrees and would have to trade 15 coal for 5 tree trunks so 10 timber as the cheapest way to get it , then i could build 3 more buildings or so and still have a crisis. And before you are asking about this extreme example

don´t you think values will get this extreme later?

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:52**

What about a crisis like this:
Enemy destroyed your town except market, 1 farm, inn and 1 farmer, 1 serf and 1 builder survived.
Thanks to the market you will be able to recover your whole economy.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:56**

But you think you will have that many resources to trade in an emergency case to help you out of it?
Yes. There is always something.
Hm i think i would be really dejected if i would be out of wood because there aren´t enough startingtrees and would have to trade 15 coal for 5 tree trunks so 10 timber as the cheapest way to get it , then i could build 3 more buildings or so and still have a crisis. And before you are asking about this extreme example don´t you think values will get this extreme later?

I have no idea, I do not take part in the decision making. I can only hope for it.

@Bo, that sounds very nice, but the chance you have something like that left is very small; the chance you will be given enough time to rebuild almost 0.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 22:57**

Thanks to the market you will be able to recover your whole economy.

lol, true. But only if your enemy feels sorry for you and lets you live, because it would take hours to come back

EDIT: Dark Lord beat me to my thoughts

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:03**

What about a crisis like this:
Enemy destroyed your town except market, 1 farm, inn and 1 farmer, 1 serf and 1 builder survived.
Thanks to the market you will be able to recover your whole economy.

i once had this, 9 serfs alive and no builders, but they left one school wich conatined 2 gold.ythe market helped me get back up really well indeed. started making a small army again in 15 minutes. we lost the game but still you get what i am saying right? even though it was mostly rehire serfs and builder and other professions, but i needed some resources wich i could obtain in the market.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:04**

Market(play with resources) is same the Townhall(play with gold) = LITTLE CHEAT what gives more variations to the game.

I think what Pizza wrote is right. If you trade with nonrenewable resource in the early game you pay for it DOUBLE price in the endgame.
Pay once in early game (1coal-1trunk) and twice in the endgame when need nonrenewable resource on high prices (coal).

I understand to somewhere lot coals are and dont need to build 2nd woodcutters because market is there....
Map Cliffs is a tipical counted map, where number of gold and iron ore has counted coal.(~300gold ore ~250iron ore, ~800coal /loc)

I've never seen to somebody has more than 300 unit after 60mins Pt or has 3 TOTAL FULL inns and no food problems..because used marketplace(s).
M is good if players made little mistakes and need correction.

M give some new ways and takes some 'KaM essentials'. But i think the older way(s) is still enough good (or better) nowadays.
(I remember some situation when players told me not enough gold on the map, yes because they trade with it because it was possible)

Horses:
1stable ~15mins 30-36corn (6corn/horse) -->5-6horses
1market 3smelter 10-12iron ~10mins -->5-6horses
(2iron-1horse or 12corn-1horse- Well 12corn is double price and double time, so in this situation better then you have stable(s) )

And YES...
everybody could use Market, if possible on the map;)

PS.map makers could decide to open/tilt market and his tradable wares. (All for one)

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:05**

With or without the marketplace's current function, I hope that we can eventually exchange goods between players. This would really help people get back on their feet, and encourage teamwork.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:19**

Well it´s obvious that some people want to keep the market and some people want to delete it.
So i think the best solution is in making it possible to play with and without market and having equal chances. Then people who hate market can leave it away and people who like to use it can use it.
I think this is possible if you are decreasing the amount of coal and maybe increase the amount of trees so your woodcutters wont have a growing time when there is no wood for more buildings -> then you are able to play without market and people who like to use it can use it without having the possability to abuse it.
I dont think taking some coal away and place grass instead + adding some trees is as hard as trying to find a good market balance ( you can see how many pages of discussion we already made without having a final result now)
So why we just don´t take us some time to edit some maps with too much coal and make them unabusable with market. I think its way faster than making an endless seeming discussion about market balance.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:27**

So why we just don´t take us some time to edit some maps with too much coal and make them unabusable with market. I think its way faster than making an endless seeming discussion about market balance.

Ben raised a good point in this topic a while ago which explains what I've been trying to say the whole time: before the marketplace, large coal fields weren't a problem. With the marketplace, they are abusable. Then how can the problem be the coal, when the market causes it?
I will NEVER edit any maps nor take into account the influence of the marketplace. If it were balanced, I shouldn't have to.
So as I said so many times before: this is just shifting the problem, and your solutions are solutions which do not take away the cause. It's like treating someone with antibiotics because he's got salmonella, while he got salmonella because he doesn't prepare his chicken the right way. The next time he prepares his chicken, he might get it again...

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:36**

TDL if you don't like the market you can always block it on your maps if it makes you feel any better.

But I don't see what chicken has to do with shifting the problem...

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:38**

So why we just don´t take us some time to edit some maps with too much coal and make them unabusable with market. I think its way faster than making an endless seeming discussion about market balance.
Ben raised a good point in this topic a while ago which explains what I've been trying to say the whole time: before the marketplace, large coal fields weren't a problem. With the marketplace, they are abusable. Then how can the problem be the coal, when the market causes it?
I will NEVER edit any maps nor take into account the influence of the marketplace. If it were balanced, I shouldn't have to.
So as I said so many times before: this is just shifting the problem, and your solutions are solutions which do not take away the cause. It's like treating someone with antibiotics because he's got salmonella, while he got salmonella because he doesn't prepare his chicken the right way. The next time he prepares his chicken, he might get it again...

but isnt't it so that both the market and the large fields of coal are the cause? i mean you cannot abuse the market if you do not have much coal to spare. it is all cause-effect. the addition of the market made it able to be abused only when you have spare resources to trade for. if you know you do not have spare coal you will think twice trading them away. so the cause of the market abuse is the spare resources that you can trade.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:43**

TDL if you don't like the market you can always block it on your maps if it makes you feel any better.

There is a high chance that my next map will indeed have the marketplace blocked.

But I don't see what chicken has to do with shifting the problem...

Well you have to fry it right.

So why we just don´t take us some time to edit some maps with too much coal and make them unabusable with market. I think its way faster than making an endless seeming discussion about market balance.
Ben raised a good point in this topic a while ago which explains what I've been trying to say the whole time: before the marketplace, large coal fields weren't a problem. With the marketplace, they are abusable. Then how can the problem be the coal, when the market causes it?
I will NEVER edit any maps nor take into account the influence of the marketplace. If it were balanced, I shouldn't have to.
So as I said so many times before: this is just shifting the problem, and your solutions are solutions which do not take away the cause. It's like treating someone with antibiotics because he's got salmonella, while he got salmonella because he doesn't prepare his chicken the right way. The next time he prepares his chicken, he might get it again...
but isnt't it so that both the market and the large fields of coal are the cause? i mean you cannot abuse the market if you do not have much coal to spare. it is all cause-effect. the addition of the market made it able to be abused only when you have spare resources to trade for. if you know you do not have spare coal you will think twice trading them away. so the cause of the market abuse is the spare resources that you can trade.

Yes, and since the marketplace was never around when the first coal fields came to their existance, it's imbalanced.

PostPosted: **06 Nov 2012, 23:46**

Can someone explain me the sense of having a big coal field about 1300 coal and only 300 gold and 300 iron? There is no use for that 400 coal .

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