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Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

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cmowla

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Post 30 Jan 2015, 23:36

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@Everstill,

To my knowledge, the market is blocked in the TSK and TPR campaigns.
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Vatrix

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 10:36

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

cmowla wrote:@Everstill,

To my knowledge, the market is blocked in the TSK and TPR campaigns.


Not in my fixes.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 11:08

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Well it should be. It would be just too stupid to trade for iron weapons and horses and have knights in TSK 2.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 11:39

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

The Dark Lord wrote:Well it should be. It would be just too stupid to trade for iron weapons and horses and have knights in TSK 2.



not only that, but the challenge in the old kam was to fight of early aggresion and defeta the enemy before your resources run out. the market kind of defeats that purpose and you can always secure a win this way.
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Vatrix

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 13:01

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Actually I was trying to fit market in this campaign, but from all posts I see it's a bad idea that breaks the game, so in next patch market will be blocked ;)
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 21:58

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

In addition, the buildings which one can initially build need to be agreed upon. For example, in your most recent TSK 14, you block the inn (as TPR original game does), but the inn was not blocked in previous versions of TSK 14 in the remake.

I'm not sure if there was a particular reasoning for certain INITIAL buildings to be allowed that were not allowed in the original game in previous remake versions, but clearly this is something your fixes do differently, at least for one of the maps in the TSK campaign.

I wanted to let everyone else know just in case this is another point of disagreement.

Before I make quick-win walkthroughs for r6720, I want to be sure that we have all agreed on initial starting buildings because the quick-win tactics I use depend on which builds are initially available.
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zombie01

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Post 31 Jan 2015, 23:42

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

we should decide on several guidelines for the campaign.
Examples:
- every mission should be challenging
- the building unlocking is according to TSK original for the TSK campaign, and TPR for the TPR campaign.
- enemy forces may be changed to adjust to the remake balancing.
- enemies should react realistically(if you sneak a soldier past the Enemy troops and attack a building or npc then the Enemy troops will attack soldier, it's not realistic that the AI just sits there and does nothing)


As long as we don't have the guidelines, then we will keep bikkering over who thinks what is best.
With the guidelines there is a line you can draw of what may and what may not be changed.

I suggest at least the above guidelines.
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Krom

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 11:36

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@zombie01: That is a good idea! :-)

Just to add - campaign difficulty should be progressing, to allow players to master the game.
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Vatrix

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 12:44

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@cmowla: It's too soon for doing walkthroughs for TSK campaign, because final patch is not out yet. It will need a lot more work and time then I thought.

@zombie01: That's something I haven't thought of. Very good idea! So I'll make here a list of guidelines as you said:

1) Campaign difficulty should be progressing
2) Every mission should be challenging
3) Balance enemies to fit in The Remake
4) Build order according to TSK
5) AI should react realistically (impossible to do with static script as far as I know) - needs a dynamic script, on which I can work with Esthlos (if you sneak a soldier past the Enemy troops and attack a building or npc then the Enemy troops will attack soldier, it's not realistic that the AI just sits there and does nothing)

Something more to add to our guidelines?

Also my Todo List:
General:
- block fish
- block market
- supplies balancing (AI)

TSK 4
- make both cities have wares in all houses from start (like the city is working already)
- change radius of bottom yellows defence positions (still not same as in original)
- switch of defend allies (useless, just annoying)

TSK 5
- make both cities have wares in all houses from start (like the city is working already)
- improve defence positions
- first blue enemy attack should happen sooner (-15 minutes I assume)
- maroon horses defence positions are redone in patch 1.0, but needs more work

TSK 8
- redo defence positions of both enemies

TSK 9
- bottom-right enemy should make soldiers after at least 60 minutes, not from the start

TSK 12
- improve maroon's attacks
- improve green's attacks

TSK 20
- improve all enemy attacks
- improve iron distribution

Something more to add on Todo List?
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Everstill

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 15:09

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

cmowla wrote:@Everstill,

To my knowledge, the market is blocked in the TSK and TPR campaigns.


As Vatrix said, it is not in his Fixes.

The Dark Lord wrote:Well it should be. It would be just too stupid to trade for iron weapons and horses and have knights in TSK 2.


This is not a problem, Vatrix blocked all resources you are supposed not to have in a given mission, so you can't have Iron or Horses in missions you don't have access to.

Plus, missions like Mission 20 where you have a fixed amount of stones, you can't trade Stones either.

dicsoupcan wrote:
The Dark Lord wrote:Well it should be. It would be just too stupid to trade for iron weapons and horses and have knights in TSK 2.


not only that, but the challenge in the old kam was to fight of early aggresion and defeta the enemy before your resources run out. the market kind of defeats that purpose and you can always secure a win this way.


Honest question, did anyone here ever runned out of resources in Knights and Merchants Campaign? Other than Iron, of course.

Vatrix wrote:Actually I was trying to fit market in this campaign, but from all posts I see it's a bad idea that breaks the game, so in next patch market will be blocked ;)


Look, I literally played all your Fixed Campaign from first to last and the time I tried to break the game with the Market (trading the initial ridiculous amount of stones for useful things) you blocked it and I was not allowed to. I don't know if I am a noob with the Market but I find the prices too high to use if you have a running Village with everything, for example, to trade for Iron weapons or Horses, 4 iron bars for 1 horse, it's better to have the full chain. And anything for Iron is expensive too.

When a given resource is depleted, there is a reason to use, but at a ineficient rate. I think the time I used the market was to pick iron weapons just to complete a Knight group, but I did not fell that breaked anything, it was better to just make a Huge Amount of Leather troops.

From pratical experience, I say it don't break the game if you block resources you are not allowed to have in a given mission (like it already is).

Krom wrote:@zombie01: That is a good idea! :-)

Just to add - campaign difficulty should be progressing, to allow players to master the game.


I agree with this,progressing difficult is really good, but... how this will work? TSK 8 is the most difficult mission followed by 14. We will make the other missions harder or simple let this two missions as living hell for itself?
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Vatrix

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 16:12

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Everstill wrote:Look, I literally played all your Fixed Campaign from first to last and the time I tried to break the game with the Market (trading the initial ridiculous amount of stones for useful things) you blocked it and I was not allowed to. I don't know if I am a noob with the Market but I find the prices too high to use if you have a running Village with everything, for example, to trade for Iron weapons or Horses, 4 iron bars for 1 horse, it's better to have the full chain. And anything for Iron is expensive too.

When a given resource is depleted, there is a reason to use, but at a ineficient rate. I think the time I used the market was to pick iron weapons just to complete a Knight group, but I did not fell that breaked anything, it was better to just make a Huge Amount of Leather troops.

From pratical experience, I say it don't break the game if you block resources you are not allowed to have in a given mission (like it already is).

Yes, but since I blocked fish, because they were not available in 1998 TSK, I think I'll let market blocked, too.
Everstill wrote:I agree with this,progressing difficult is really good, but... how this will work? TSK 8 is the most difficult mission followed by 14. We will make the other missions harder or simple let this two missions as living hell for itself?

I think the right order should be (without tactic missions):
TSK 1
TSK 2
TSK 4
TSK 5
TSK 7
TSK 9
TSK 11
TSK 12
TSK 18
TSK 15
TSK 16
TSK 8
TSK 14
TSK 20
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cmowla

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 16:58

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Everstill wrote:
cmowla wrote:@Everstill,

To my knowledge, the market is blocked in the TSK and TPR campaigns.


As Vatrix said, it is not in his Fixes.
You said that the market is already "in the game". "The game" is not equal to Vatrix's fixes at the moment. When you mentioned that to Ben, I'm sure he was as confused as I was about what you were talking about. :wink:

Everstill wrote:Honest question, did anyone here ever runned out of resources in Knights and Merchants Campaign? Other than Iron, of course.
Yes. When I first started playing the original game's TSK campaign, I ran out of gold because I procrastinated and thus let the enemy built up a large army. I didn't know how to build good food producing towns to afford to feed a very large army at once (the serfs used to not be so efficient as they are in the remake), and thus I would consume a lot of gold. In addition, in TSK 08 and TSK 11, I used to allow the AI to continuously disallow me to mine nearby coal and iron deposits. (This perhaps goes for many more missions.)

If you have the market at your disposal, then you can build a village with its center of mass in such a way that the AI comes and attacks you at a good location for you to intercept.

Therefore, one can run out of resources by being prevented from getting them OR from exhausting them. But, as I've said, you can cleverly use the market to conveniently solve both of these problems.

Everstill wrote:I don't know if I am a noob with the Market but I find the prices too high to use if you have a running Village with everything, for example, to trade for Iron weapons or Horses, 4 iron bars for 1 horse, it's better to have the full chain. And anything for Iron is expensive too.
The market is made expensive on purpose to not upset the balance of the game. However, in my one experience with using the market in "Two Sides", I find that the following trades are "worth it".
Trade wine barrels or wood for gold.
Trade pigs or skins for iron weapons.
Trade wine barrels for stones.

Speaking of trading for gold and stones,
Everstill wrote:I think the time I used the market was to pick iron weapons just to complete a Knight group, but I did not fell that breaked anything, it was better to just make a Huge Amount of Leather troops.
You have to remember the TSK and TPR campaigns are meant to be for people of all skill levels (well, maybe not people at the "skilled" level and above), and therefore it is very easy for a beginner (or anyone who isn't thinking straight) to forget to build a metallurgist or stone mason building. Making this LOSING mistake can be "made up for" by using the market to do a few trades for gold and stone, respectively.
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Ben

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 18:55

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

To extend Camowla's regards on the market, 2 sausage -> 1 tree trunk is a very good late game trade of wood space is limited and iron is gone/leather only.
Actually this would be very useful to abuse in missions 8 and 9, where space is very limited (iirc)
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Everstill

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 23:38

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Vatrix wrote:
Everstill wrote:Look, I literally played all your Fixed Campaign from first to last and the time I tried to break the game with the Market (trading the initial ridiculous amount of stones for useful things) you blocked it and I was not allowed to. I don't know if I am a noob with the Market but I find the prices too high to use if you have a running Village with everything, for example, to trade for Iron weapons or Horses, 4 iron bars for 1 horse, it's better to have the full chain. And anything for Iron is expensive too.

When a given resource is depleted, there is a reason to use, but at a ineficient rate. I think the time I used the market was to pick iron weapons just to complete a Knight group, but I did not fell that breaked anything, it was better to just make a Huge Amount of Leather troops.

From pratical experience, I say it don't break the game if you block resources you are not allowed to have in a given mission (like it already is).

Yes, but since I blocked fish, because they were not available in 1998 TSK, I think I'll let market blocked, too.
Everstill wrote:I agree with this,progressing difficult is really good, but... how this will work? TSK 8 is the most difficult mission followed by 14. We will make the other missions harder or simple let this two missions as living hell for itself?

I think the right order should be (without tactic missions):
TSK 1
TSK 2
TSK 4
TSK 5
TSK 7
TSK 9
TSK 11
TSK 12
TSK 18
TSK 15
TSK 16
TSK 8
TSK 14
TSK 20


You will not remove everything just because it was not there in 1998 right? Like Control Groups, Rally Point, Shield Bonus, Lack of Archer bug, etc... I think you should make a list of things to be removed and to be keep and the reason behind it, because "because they were not available in 1998 TSK" is not a good one, I don't care for the fish itself, I care about the reason you are using to remove or keep things. Basically, you will try to keep new mechanics, but will remove new buildings? (exception for Build order mechanics...)

And I think your order is really good (The last mission is supposed to be the harder right?) and you swaped 8 and 14 for the 'progressing difficult'? Also, I never agreed how TSK 18 is so easy, the briefing say how hard it is to assault the fortress and how many generals failed, but it is in fact a easy mission :) I think the design of the mission that make it easy.

cmowla wrote:
Everstill wrote:
As Vatrix said, it is not in his Fixes.
You said that the market is already "in the game". "The game" is not equal to Vatrix's fixes at the moment. When you mentioned that to Ben, I'm sure he was as confused as I was about what you were talking about. :wink:


Well, in fact I thought the Remake Base Campaign was just untouched like TPR, and the only thing Vatrix changed was the locked wares. Never passed in my mind that everything of Remake was there with the exeption of the Market.

Everstill wrote:Honest question, did anyone here ever runned out of resources in Knights and Merchants Campaign? Other than Iron, of course.
Yes. When I first started playing the original game's TSK campaign, I ran out of gold because I procrastinated and thus let the enemy built up a large army. I didn't know how to build good food producing towns to afford to feed a very large army at once (the serfs used to not be so efficient as they are in the remake), and thus I would consume a lot of gold. In addition, in TSK 08 and TSK 11, I used to allow the AI to continuously disallow me to mine nearby coal and iron deposits. (This perhaps goes for many more missions.)

If you have the market at your disposal, then you can build a village with its center of mass in such a way that the AI comes and attacks you at a good location for you to intercept.

Therefore, one can run out of resources by being prevented from getting them OR from exhausting them. But, as I've said, you can cleverly use the market to conveniently solve both of these problems.


Well, in fact gold is the only important resource someone can run out in KnM, but if you really runned out of resources, this is a serious problem then, because the amount of resources avaliable is proportional to the old balance of TSK, now we will rebalance everything, so the amount of resource will not be the same and noobs like your old self will lose even harder (with the market this is never a problem). I never thought it was possible to run out of gold because even in my noob days where I had to make a large amount of troops and attack over and over I had plenty of gold left (so I think the KnM designer used the 'worst case scenario' for the amount of gold) and I always let the enemy build a large army (and they have a max amount of units anyway). Just for players that are really really bad. (but this players will lose to the improved attack force)

Other resources are ok to run out. They are not vital. I don't get this "build a village with a center of mass in such a way..." The AI will always attack your closest building, you can already do this to fight in a good location if you want to abuse things this far.

And yes, you solve this exhausting problem with the market, but I saw it as a good thing! Because without the inefficient market as a 'very late game solution for my lack of skill' we will have to rebalance things so a very bad person can win like TSK... (because this very bad person in a now harder mission, will have to rely on the market to make his army late game) that's why I asked if someone was ever losed because of resources.

But look, I'm just showing my point of view, I will agree with everything decided here.

Everstill wrote:I don't know if I am a noob with the Market but I find the prices too high to use if you have a running Village with everything, for example, to trade for Iron weapons or Horses, 4 iron bars for 1 horse, it's better to have the full chain. And anything for Iron is expensive too.
The market is made expensive on purpose to not upset the balance of the game. However, in my one experience with using the market in "Two Sides", I find that the following trades are "worth it".
Trade wine barrels or wood for gold.
Trade pigs or skins for iron weapons.
Trade wine barrels for stones.

Speaking of trading for gold and stones,
Everstill wrote:I think the time I used the market was to pick iron weapons just to complete a Knight group, but I did not fell that breaked anything, it was better to just make a Huge Amount of Leather troops.
You have to remember the TSK and TPR campaigns are meant to be for people of all skill levels (well, maybe not people at the "skilled" level and above), and therefore it is very easy for a beginner (or anyone who isn't thinking straight) to forget to build a metallurgist or stone mason building. Making this LOSING mistake can be "made up for" by using the market to do a few trades for gold and stone, respectively.


And I agree with the expensive rate, the Market must be a secondary choice, not the primary. But look, this 'worth' trades are when you can't get stone, or iron weapons or gold, the primary way should always be more efficient. (and the numbers can always be changed)

And this way of "LOSING" is a very bad way to lose... I don't think someone is happy to lose because he forget to build a metallurgist and must start ALL OVER AGAIN in a game like KnM that is a very time consuming game, he must be punished (make ineficient trades in the market for example) not literally lose. In fact, losing this way is not even because of anything in the mission, the player just losed to the basic mechanics of the game. (and the game not even alert the players about this). A really noob players losing to a basic mechanic is not a fundamental part of the game.

EDIT:

@Vatrix

Here the TSK 6 that I played.

https://mega.co.nz/#!h9khGB4R!sFALYHCgq ... TTejFbhjHs

I tried to be very lazy and just faced the enemy, but victory still comes. What you want to test?
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Krom

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Post 02 Feb 2015, 05:22

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

To add to Market discussion. If there's a market, there should be a mission based around it, that relies on it and teaches player to take advantage of it. One such example of "optional" building is Towers, which are essential element of TSK 8 iirc. However tailoring TSK campaign around Market does not sound right, so these above are just some thoughts on the topic.
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