TSK 20 Won in 4.5 minutes (r6720)

[cmowla]

i didnt really know where to put this but

i won tsk 03 without using any ranged units
it's a fun challange and pretty hard

I watched it. This is pretty neat. I never thought about doing this, but if there ever was a TSK version for experienced players, I think TSK03 without bowmen would fit in perfectly.

Also, I'm not sure if you watched my 17.5 minute replay or someone else did, but I am planning on reducing the time even more. My potential plan, if it proves successful (to obtain a shorter time than 17.5 minutes), will probably be one of the most interesting TSK replays to watch.

[Ben]

I never thought about doing this, but if there ever was a TSK version for experienced players, I think TSK03 without bowmen would fit in perfectly.

I think that if we have a "experienced players" version of TSK, it would just have a harder setting on AI (when the AI is improved). As of right now, you need such restrictions because the brain-dead AI is so ridiculously easy to manipulate.

[cmowla]

As of right now, you need such restrictions because the brain-dead AI is so ridiculously easy to manipulate.

I think the actual design of the campaigns in the remake could be a bigger problem than the AI itself.

[Ben]

I don't know what you mean by that. However, I doubt that the design could be near as much of a problem as the AI. I mean seriously, all you need to do is lure the AI into a ridiculous trap. They don't care at all about formation, defending or using their range properly, flanking, attacking vulnerable position, etc.

[pawel95]

Don´t get it also what you mean with "design". If you mean changements in the single missions, TSK03 isn´t changed in comparision to the original TSK03 mission

[cmowla]

Well, for example, after I won TSK04 in r5503 in world record time, I played it again a few days later. However that time, I intentionally played it for 4+ hours to see if the AI would build a large army as in the original game. But when I finally got bored and attacked them, they had the same size army as they had in the beginning of the game. In addition, the waves were no more intense than TSK01's waves in the original game. I've noticed a similar trend in TSK20. Maybe that's why I have become interested in winning the missions quickly because, after all, you're only going to fight the original AI army anyway...

Maybe I confused "design" with AI, but when Ben mentioned AI, I believe he was referring to their ability to be better in combat, not their ability to merely increase their army size and have good quality villages comparable to the original game...that is, if you fail to attack early, you actually pay for it.

[pawel95]

"world record time" HAHA. Only because noone is actualy posting any answers in THIS topic, that doesn´t mean that there aren´t people that did already a better time LOL

[cmowla]

"world record time" HAHA. Only because noone is actualy posting any answers in THIS topic, that doesn´t mean that there aren´t people that did already a better time LOL

To me, the definition of "world record time" is when there is official proof of a claim of a specific time made publicly known which no one else's publicly known times (also backed up with proof) beat that time...we could theorize that someone beat my TSK04 time in r5503, but until our theory is proven true with replays (this is the remake and thus missions can easily be modified and simplified...so replays verify that no changes were made to the mission), there should be no reason why my TSK04, TSK05, TSK08, TSK11, and TSK20 times should be doubted as the current world record times in r5503...all of these records also beat the Polish records for the original game except for TSK11 which kaszub beat it in 00:29:xy (just a minute faster than my best time).

[Ben]

Well Pawel still isn't necessarily wrong, but neither are you. Still, no offence, see no accomplishment for these "records." Pawel probably has similar feelings thus his response. However, they are quite useful in determining where and how the AI is flawed and needs improvements.

[pawel95]

Well the funny fact is only, that you still compare the tsk times of the polish forum with your times of the remake XD

[Ben]

Indeed, that is also true. I'm sure these players would be equally capable of defending their titles in the Remake, if only they were active/posting.

[cmowla]

Well the funny fact is only, that you still compare the tsk times of the polish forum with your times of the remake XD

I don't know if you noticed, but I beat the Polish record for TSK20 by 8 minutes in the original game on my first try to win it quickly using a completely different approach than my current one for TSK20 of the remake. If we compare my TSK20 win in the original game with the initial army, then I beat the Polish record by almost an hour. So I doubt there is that much of a difference between the two games. In fact, I might be able to beat TSK20 in the original game faster than I can in the remake. I have not attempted to win the other missions quickly in the original game yet with my initial army, however.

Ben,
No offense taken.
I don't see the significance of MP in KaM, especially since everyone builds in a similar way, there is a peace time, one has little control over the behavior of the troops and the outcome of battle, etc., but just because I have not seen any significance in it, I didn't mention it until now because was not my place to, and I'm only mentioning it now as an example. All my life I have valued what the majority doesn't value and dislike what the majority valued, but I'm still ticking strongly despite how unfortunate it has been for me because of how I am.

[sado1]

I don't know whether I want to continue this topic, but I can see how you both are kind of biased. I never play SP because I don't enjoy it much (I'd rather play a multiplayer map alone instead). But this is a bit like with Zombie Modes from Skypper for example. I don't like to play them, since I don't fancy pursuing new records much (heck, even my own Space Invaders is too boring to me, and I find it hard to continue developing it... I just made sure the newest version has no bugs, then didn't implement many new features). I played this Dark Ravines map once and it was kinda fun, but nothing to keep me busy for more than a while. Just not my cup of tea, but I can see how some people might like it.

At first, I also thought that your records are nothing interesting, cmowla, because there's nothing special in single player, but now I realize it's because... I don't find SP anything special. I can see that our arguments against SP record hunting are a bit biased by the fact that we don't find SP enjoyable. (Then, I am not sure, because Pawel is a known SP lover )

Especially that when I see your arguments against MP, I cannot disagree more. Not everyone builds in a similar way (humans always think a bit differently, planning is most important, and everyone has his own idea how to plan his base)* [you didn't explain why peace time is a bad thing so I won't elaborate]; you have exactly the same control over the troops as in SP, AND you have to take other player's maneouvers into account. It's sad to hear that you dislike MP that much, especially that to me it seems like your arguments are mainly based on lack of understanding how MP works. (and that goes from a guy who is known as the worst KaM MP player possible, so don't take this as an offense, was totally not meant to be one )


*there are some players that just learn replays by memory, I guess they'd be an exception... it's impossible to do this for more than a few locations, so it doesn't make someone a good player

[pawel95]

Sorry, just a small notice from ny side again. Have ti disagree again. Those games aren't working STILL the same. When you really want to compare statistics:

a.) Open/find a topic on the polish forum with records from the remake
b.) Just play those missions in thr original KaM ? With that you can compare it the best way!

That was my point. If you are playing two diffent games you can't tell your times "world record", while there are too few/no times from other players in that game END.


Sado is right, on the other side not with everything. I know many strategy games where it was waay more fun to play, than in multiplayer.
I think the reason is just, because the ai is "op", like having a huge army and a big city already at start and you have nothing and so you have to be way vetter than the ai, that's at least the plan of sp missions XD so if he doesn't like mp, you won't change that really with your text.
Why? Mostly because kam is a strange game. In mp the economy is very important. It has to be very stable under many aspects, like you can see from cmowlas words like "won with initial attack" he rather like the fight/tricking ai-part in kam and that makes the sp/mp games in kam so different (I like both )

[cmowla]

My new plan for TSK20 not only succeeded, but I got a shorter time than expected.

Mission 20 can be won in 11 minutes and 31 seconds.