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Town Hall / Siege Workshop

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Krom

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Post 15 Sep 2013, 10:13

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

It is awesome what mapmakers are doing with scripts! :)

It looks like a good idea that you need to feed the newly hired mercenaries. What do you think?
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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The Dark Lord

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Post 24 Sep 2013, 14:59

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

I would like to get a reply on the discussion starting from this post: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1036&start=45#p30286
I'm updating TNL and there is siege equipment present in 6 of the 16 missions. It wouldn't be the same without it. So I need to know if (there is a slight chance that) they will ever be added or if I should edit or even replace the missions.
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thunder

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Post 12 Oct 2013, 06:53

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1794

More ideas for the TH, which is on this way rather as politic building than unit maker. Rather as a transform building where groups get a new knowledge.
And i still say only one TH should be buildable only.

I support this ideas because there are many rush games where these can give a little chance to survive and seems arent OP because if transform your all citizens to army and would like to retrain them then need lots of time...i know Pros and Cons...;)



PS:
Siege units? Hm do they have animations in the remake? Last time i tried to add them but havent worked yet.:S Only the Siegeworkshop worked.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 15 Oct 2013, 15:18

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

The Dark Lord wrote:I would like to get a reply on the discussion starting from this post: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1036&start=45#p30286
I'm updating TNL and there is siege equipment present in 6 of the 16 missions. It wouldn't be the same without it. So I need to know if (there is a slight chance that) they will ever be added or if I should edit or even replace the missions.
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WhiteWolf

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 08:45

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Well, maybe it's better to ask Krom/Lewin directly ? I think it would be a good idea to add the TH and SW to the singleplayer missions only but there is nothing i can do about it~

Indeed the missions won't be the same without them.
There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt.
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Krom

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 09:12

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Indeed, asking in a PM or a email would have provided a faster answer. Skype/GTalk would have been more constructive too, but since you insist on public answer ..

Following is my IMHO which may or may not represent "KaM Remake team" opinion:

I can't call myself a TH or SW fan. IMO these two structures do not fit well into KaM TSK universe. On the other hand they are very much anticipated by KaM community. This makes this topic rather hard to handle.
I think there's a slight chance that we might add the SW, but we might re-specialize ballista/catapult specs and/or usage so they will not behave the same as in TPR, so they are not uber-xbows, but instead a complimentary force (think tactically).
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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dicsoupcan

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 09:14

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Well on that statement i can agree i did not like the TH, but i still anticipate the TH units in one way or another, even if it is only for singleplayer.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Krom

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 10:40

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

I doubt we will add artificial differences between SP and MP. The game should provide consistent gameplay mechanics in both modes. So if we add SW it gets added to SP and MP in exactly the same way.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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WhiteWolf

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 13:38

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

That's a very clear answer. What about adding the siege equipment like barbarians ? Can be placed by map makers but can't be build by players.
There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt.
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sado1

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 16:44

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

One possible option would be to make cata and ballista usable by dynamic scripts only, along with editing its stats. This way, TDL will have to do the balancing on his own :P OK, but seriously now, I know it's not consistent at all and having every map with different SW units stats, could be a nightmare for players.

And before TDL makes a new post: what do you think should he do with TNL now? I assume the answer is "it's probably not worth the wait, you should fit the campaign to the Remake without SW/TH".
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pawel95

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Post 16 Oct 2013, 18:30

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

sado1 wrote:it's probably not worth the wait, you should fit the campaign to the Remake without SW/TH".


He can do what he want, but I hate that idea. These missions were nearly perfect with that siege equipment, to replace them just with things like mass bowmen or sth like that is just no real help, I think.
Better it would be just to reimplement the siege equipment. Even when the remake team is still against implementing it because its op, then just to implement it to Singleplayer! (Later on it will be like Krom said 1by1 with mp, continue reading)
SO that would give 2 big + :
1.) Mapmakers like TDL could bring their nice mission/campaigns to the Remake, like they were originaly
2.) The Remake team could "play" with the balance/costs whatever and when the next update will come out, players could give feedback how that helped or not. That could be done that long, until they would find a perfect balance/build system and could thing about implementing it to the mp :P Because balance isn´t a problem in sp games, ai players have 50 times more army than you at the start, so there is no need to give them "pefect balance" in SP MODE. :mrgreen:
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The Dark Lord

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Post 18 Oct 2013, 12:05

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Okay... I STILL think it would be best to add siege equipment to single player only... I haven't seen any arguments against it. But Krom said it's not going to happen, so I will respect that (he's lucky, my dog survived very heavy surgery and I feel like I can conquer the whole world now (although a Dark Lord like me can do that any day of course). Next time I'll be my old grumpy self and demand answers! :P)
Then, we will have to come up with ideas how siege equipment can fit in KaM multiplayer (and assume that it will also work in single player; but balance in single player is easier to adjust, so that's not a big problem in my opinion). As we all know, there are two kinds of siege equipment:

Catapults and ballistas.

I am not going to lie; I kinda liked how they worked in TPR, except that they were so overpowered. I don't think it's bad that they can kill units in one shot; it's quite realistic. But we need to think how we want them to work. There are just so many possibilities!

Catapults:
Some people suggest they should only be able to only attack buildings. Regarding this, I can come up with the following options:
1. Make them indeed only able to attack buildings
2. Make them able to attack buildings and units standing on tiles next to the buildings (in the same way as archers can shoot your own melee troops when you attack buildings, so it would be just a miss that accidentily hits a unit)
3. Make them able to attack both buildings and units.

Regarding option 1 and 2: what should their range be? How much damage should they do? How is their accuracy?
Regarding option 3: I think it's pretty hard to aim for moving targets with a catapult, so maybe they should have low accuracy for units and high accuracy for buildings.

Ballistas:
1. Only add catapults, forget about ballistas
2. They can attack buildings only
3. They can attack units only
4. They can attack both.

Option 2 does not make much sense in my opinion. A catapult that fires rocks is much stronger against buildings than a ballista that fires an arrow. I will get back to this in my verdict. :P

Regarding both siege weapons: to make them more or less powerful, it is obviously possible to change their accuracy, reload time, speed, build time, costs, etcetera. Catapults fired multiple (3 if I remember correctly) rocks in TPR, this could be brought back to 1 or 2 if necessary.

My opinion: I think both ballistas and catapults should be added to the game, not just catapults. I also think both weapons should be able to attack both units and buildings. Since ballistas fire arrows and catapults fire rocks that are probably hard to aim versus moving targets, I suggest the following:
- Catapults should do a lot damage to buildings, thereby being pretty accurate at hitting them.
- They should have low accuracy against units, but when they hit, they should do much damage or maybe just kill the unit in one hit (maybe an exception could be made for knights and scouts, making cavalry more powerful? Very debatable, not sure what I think about that myself, since the low speed of siege equipment already makes cavalry more important).
- Friendly fire should be applied to catapults, so they will be used to tear down structures mostly.
- Ballistas should be very strong against units and not so strong against buildings.
- Reload time for both siege units should be increased significantly to not make them too powerful.
- Taking increased reload time into account, I am not sure about ballista accuracy. When envisioning a multiplayer battle in my head, many players have lots of sword fighters and bowmen. Having some militia would be good to take the ballista arrows that would otherwise slaughter your expensive sword fighters. However, a clever fighter would just keep moving his ballistas around until the militia are dead and then let them fire. This should not be too abusable, but how will we achieve this?
As you can see, so far my idea how it should work is very close to how it was in TPR. But to prevent players from making 20 ballista that just kill anything you send to destroy them, I suggest:
- Increasing build time of siege weapons dramatically: 5-10 minutes. Building cost can stay the same in my opinion.
All in all a catapult should be excellent for destroying buildings, while a ballista excells at killing units (while you can defend them long enough since their reload time should be pretty high).

So many suggestions! I feel like Jeronimo now. I only should have used some colours and italic text. ^^
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Jeronimo

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Knight

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Post 18 Oct 2013, 12:26

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

The Dark Lord wrote:So many suggestions! I feel like Jeronimo now. I only should have used some colours and italic text. ^^

:D It's no over yet. Now you have to experience the little to non feedback, after having thought and written for a minimum 30 minutes.
Silly feeling. The only good thing at the end... is that brain was used for something constructive.

I would surely suggest more things for KaM, but then you realize noone is caring about what you write.
Some of my ideas in the past got the "OK", but till the date they never appeared (I think ideas are easily forgotten due many posts walls).

1 example: Once I suggested changing the "buildings door icon" function which currently is "stop delivery of resources" for a "stop delivery and don't allow worker to go in".
This idea got positive critics, since solved the recruits-towers problem (so you hadn't to delete towers if you wanted recruits going to barracks only), and also allowed you to choose which mines should be occupied first, etc.
KaM Skill Level: Jeronimo
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

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Post 19 Oct 2013, 08:52

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

I mostly agree with what The Dark Lord wrote, I think siege equipment could be rebalanced to fit into both single and multiplayer. Nobody pushing them and not requiring food still looks out of place to me but at the end of the day it's only a game and I think I could put up with it.

Jeronimo wrote:1 example: Once I suggested changing the "buildings door icon" function which currently is "stop delivery of resources" for a "stop delivery and don't allow worker to go in".
This idea got positive critics, since solved the recruits-towers problem (so you hadn't to delete towers if you wanted recruits going to barracks only), and also allowed you to choose which mines should be occupied first, etc.

That is currently one of the 85 items on our primary todo list (we have other todo lists too), and has been on the list for quite a long time. Even seemly small features take a significant amount of time to implement, and have the potential to cause bugs or unforeseen issues. There's only so much we can get done with a very limited amount of time to spend on development. Recently I've been too busy with university to do any work, but I'm looking forward to getting back to the project after my final exams.
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Leeuwgie

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Post 19 Oct 2013, 12:28

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

We talked to Krom on TS some time ago and he he agreed on testing siege equipment in the next beta version (if we are lucky it will be available before the end of this year). However he explained that he isn't the ''balance guy'' in this project. Now that Lewin likes the idea I'm really looking forward to try it in the next version. I'm not sure how it will work out in gameplay yet but I don't think it's OP to use it since their cost is so high and they're pretty easy to take down, so I recommend not to nerf them before we tried them out as they were in the original.
No matter what, always keep smiling ~ Bassie (from Bassie & Adriaan)
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