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Town Hall / Siege Workshop

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WhiteWolf

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Post 05 Jul 2013, 12:05

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Good afternoon,

Might be an idea to create a second building ?

Hiring non-professional units would be done at the town hall where rebels and rogues represent your civilians.

(however i noticed that rebels have 1 attack and 3 (extra?) vs mounted units, this is the same as lance carriers (only those have +1 armor). I think this is out of balance since lance carriers are trained and rebels are not. Therefor I think rebels should have 1 less vs mounted units.)

Hiring Barbarians (in my opinion professional machines of destruction) would be done at the second building called... "Mercenary outpost" ??

Both buildings could be paid functioning like the market place. No resources are stored in this building till you 'hire' a unit. The serfs would than take the gold/wine/bread/timber etc. from the storehouse to the Town hall/Mercenary outpost and a unit is 'bought'. This way the hired-units could be paid with gold/wine/bread/timber.

Leaving the Militia and vagabond just for the barracks, as said before 1 recruit+1axe+1horse. In my opinion its the players choice to use the vagabonds or not whether they are outbalanced or not, cheap scouts but weak, might be an idea to weak them even further?

kind regards,
WhiteWolf

PS: the 'siege workshop' could be the design of the second building ?
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WhiteWolf

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Post 08 Jul 2013, 12:50

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Nobody thinks the same about this :P haha, always thought i was a bit odd :$. Just found out that the swords/shield and anti-horse signs on the scrolls inside the barracks don't always represent the same amount of 'attack' points.

So the whole think about the 'rebel' being overpowered could be forgotten :P However i still think that the hiring system could work as described in my previous comment.

Town hall -> rebels, rogues
Mercenary post -> Barbarians, warriors (deserters)
Barracks -> militia, vagebond
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Ben

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Post 08 Jul 2013, 14:16

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Holy... for a second there I thought Thunderwolf was posting again lol...

Thunder had a similar idea on a different topic (I couldn't find the link. All these townhall ideas have become a messy nightmare). I'm not sure how Krom and Lewin feel about this.

Also, when compared to lance carriers, rebels actually have more attack bonus against cavalry. As expected, pikemen have the most out of the three.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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WhiteWolf

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Post 08 Jul 2013, 19:04

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Hmm, yeah i noticed that there were alot of topics concerning the town hall and especially the units bought at the town hall :P

On the other hand, i think its fun to start a game with units you cant make so you are more 'careful' with your troops.
There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 10:18

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Please allow me to continue this discussion. I have been thinking. Yes, your eyes do not deceive you.
I still think that the town hall and siege workshop are not suitable for multiplayer. However, why not add them to singleplayer only? This was proposed before and declined. But I want to ask again: why? Because singleplayer and multiplayer should be the same? I think it wouldn't hurt to add these features to singleplayer. What is the worst that can happen? People getting confused? They try to build it in multiplayer too but - hey, it's impossible. A mistake you only make once. It's not that strange to have singleplayer that's different from multiplayer? Many games have buildings and units in singleplayer that multiplayer doesn't have. In other words: please convince me why it's impossible/unwanted for Knights and Merchants?
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woloszek

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 10:53

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

I want too, machines in singleplayer. It would be more interesting than now :wink: .
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Shadaoe

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 15:04

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

I don't think that's a good idea to have differences between singleplayer and multiplayer, because I like a game to be consistant, and I don't like having possibilities in one mode that I don't have in another.
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Bence791

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 15:10

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Why not Shad? :D

P.S.: Not sure if anyone found out, but this topic is by me before I registered here :p
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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Shadaoe

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 15:27

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

If there is a difference between SP and MP, then the game feels unconsistant and it seems like you play two different games.
Would you like unit stats change between SP and MP ? additional food in SP ? I don't think so, so the answer to "why not ?" is the argument you'd yourself (I guess) have against these two things.

I just don't like the idea of different SP and MP in the remake, I mean no probem with scripts, but the base game should remain the same in both modes in my opinion.
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WollongongWolf

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 15:51

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Well, SP and MP are pretty different imo:
-in SP the enemy has decent base at the start which grows a bit slower than yours in army (eventually). Why you think there is no peacetime in SP?
-SP has sometimes starting army's that also need food and are needed to go through the first attacks
-in SP, the enemy is always fine with food (infinite food), gold and sometimes other sources. You can't attack a town, kill some bakers or so so the enemy might get food trouble.
-Dynamic scripts that might favor one party more than the other in SP (in MP, it should be equal)
-Troop movements

And probably more stuff I'm missing right now, thing is, there is a nice bit of variation between sp and mp. I found it sometimes funny to crush a whole army (or just a single militia) with 25 catapults, or once I killed a bakery without attacking it (just the people walking next to it). If one doesn't want to use them, fine, than he doesn't.

And I don't see how it can be very confusing, like, is it confusing you can't build lots of buildings on tsk missions, or not build towers on Rich Land/other maps? Perhaps a little, but not causing headaches.
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Shadaoe

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 16:13

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

WollongongWolf wrote:Well, SP and MP are pretty different imo:

Ok sorry for the all the quotes I'm going to put but here are the answers.
WollongongWolf wrote:-in SP the enemy has decent base at the start which grows a bit slower than yours in army (eventually). Why you think there is no peacetime in SP?

In SP in the future with the AI (or even now with dynamic scripts)you could let the AI start with the same basic base as the player and let it build and attack.
Why I think there is no peacetime in SP ?
1)Because the AI is not as stupid as a human being to do something as lame and not fun as a militia rush to kill its enemy.
2)Because in the original game there was no PT and the peacetime was invented to force human beings not playing lamely.
By the way, some maps in MP don't require a PT, and in multiplayer you'll be able to insert AI players to fill the slots when it'll be finished.
So this point is not a difference.
WollongongWolf wrote:-SP has sometimes starting army's that also need food and are needed to go through the first attacks

You could do that in MP too, but mapmakers didn't feel like doing it much for now, but nothing is limited to SP and MP currently, you can code a nice AI in both case, you can make this AI start with nothing or a lot of things, you can make the payer(s) start with an army or not, well nothing limited to one gamemode, it's all consistant.
WollongongWolf wrote:-in SP, the enemy is always fine with food (infinite food), gold and sometimes other sources. You can't attack a town, kill some bakers or so so the enemy might get food trouble.

In sp you can do an AI that doesn't have infinite food and yet doesn't starve, as well as you can do an AI in mp (coop) that would have infinite food, again all possibilities are available in both sp and mp.
WollongongWolf wrote:-Dynamic scripts that might favor one party more than the other in SP (in MP, it should be equal)

In MP you can do non equal dynamic scripts too and add terrain disadvantage or player count malus for the advantaged team, or anything. As wel las you can do equel advantages in SP, I don't see any difference.
WollongongWolf wrote:-Troop movements

I think globally you didn't describe the difference between SP and MP, but the difference between an AI and a human. Because currently in the remake, all the possibilities, all of them, are available for a mapmaker in both SP and MP, a proof being that there are coop maps (even if that's not the mapmakers/players priority).

WollongongWolf wrote:And probably more stuff I'm missing right now, thing is, there is a nice bit of variation between sp and mp. I found it sometimes funny to crush a whole army (or just a single militia) with 25 catapults, or once I killed a bakery without attacking it (just the people walking next to it). If one doesn't want to use them, fine, than he doesn't.

In KaMRemake, there is not, absolutely not, any difference between sp and mp play except the very difference that in mp you can have other humans. (which seems obvious but well).
And the "fine he doesn't use this" part is not really an argument in my opinion, because it would still be here. And even if you don't use it that's still an unconsistancy in the game modes.

WollongongWolf wrote:And I don't see how it can be very confusing, like, is it confusing you can't build lots of buildings on tsk missions, or not build towers on Rich Land/other maps? Perhaps a little, but not causing headaches.

You know what would cause headaches ? The fact that you start adding differences between SP and MP has many consequences.
Here are my examples :
-it would cause the map editor to be overly complex because you need to add a differentiation between SP and MP
-it would make porting maps between SP and MP harder

So again, there is currently no difference at all between SP and MP in the remake. All possibilities are opened to both modes.

And, again, I'm against adding any difference because it feels unconsistant and adds many complications that nobody wants to have.

As far as I know Krom and Lewin are against inconsistancies in the game, that's their argument for not allowing unit stat changes in dynamic scripting. (correct me if I'm wrong).
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The Dark Lord

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 17:05

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Well, even in original KaM, there were differences between single player and multiplayer: the script. But that didn't affect gameplay which is probably your main concern. I think you are right about why Krom and Lewin don't want this: because it creates an inconsistency. But I dare to question that decision, which leads us here.
Why would an inconsistency be so bad? If it would be something confusing like 'sword fighters are 2,56% stronger in multiplayer', then I would fully agree with you. But something very clear as 'you can or you cannot'? I don't see how it would hurt. In fact, I think most players would like it. But of course I can't prove that.
The reasons you put forward, being
  Code:
-it would cause the map editor to be overly complex because you need to add a differentiation between SP and MP
-it would make porting maps between SP and MP harder

are minor problems. The word problem isn't even justified in my opinion; a differentiation has always been there in the script editor, because multiplayer requires a different script than single player. Your second point is true, but it's still easy to do. And some maps are just not meant for multiplayer or viceversa. Gameplay-wise, I haven't seen any arguments against.
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Shadaoe

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 18:15

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

The Dark Lord wrote:But that didn't affect gameplay which is probably your main concern.

Exactly.

The Dark Lord wrote:Why would an inconsistency be so bad? If it would be something confusing like 'sword fighters are 2,56% stronger in multiplayer', then I would fully agree with you. But something very clear as 'you can or you cannot'? I don't see how it would hurt. In fact, I think most players would like it. But of course I can't prove that.

It's true that it's not the worse I can think of, but it's still a difference between the two game modes and I don't like it, I'm not discussing about what you want to include in SP, I'm discussing about including it in SP only.
I always hate having something different when I play on a said mode of the base game (don't take custom dynamic scrits into account here), but I guess that's more a matter of personal taste.
The Dark Lord wrote:The reasons you put forward, being
  Code:
-it would cause the map editor to be overly complex because you need to add a differentiation between SP and MP
-it would make porting maps between SP and MP harder

are minor problems. The word problem isn't even justified in my opinion; a differentiation has always been there in the script editor, because multiplayer requires a different script than single player. Your second point is true, but it's still easy to do. And some maps are just not meant for multiplayer or viceversa. Gameplay-wise, I haven't seen any arguments against.

It'd still make it unnecessarily complicated in my opinion, and I'm not sure that's the best way to do it, but again that's a matter of taste and maybe more people would like your solution, in which case I would adapt for sure.
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woloszek

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Post 25 Aug 2013, 18:17

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Ok, I can understand why Krom and Lewin do not want the town hall in the game (because it's a scam, and the need new buildings for troops from the Town Hall), but the workshop war, a scam? I think not. What's your problem? attack machine without human assistance? Game of the Cossacks attacked the canon as well as machines to Kam. Nobody does the problem when crossbowmen / archers have unlimited crossbows / arrows. Maybe just stop so complicated this game? :?
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thunder

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Post 15 Sep 2013, 09:06

Re: Town Hall / Siege Workshop

Hi!

Thanks for Andreus we have townhall script. Where the 3rd school working as TH. Only the 3rd school.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1794

I tested it more times and one townhall cant be stronger than the original classic building way.
I think to maybe could help in the balance problem also. I think to nowadays the best strats and maybe the strongest and the only good way is the swords+bows combo.
Nobody abuse horses(rarely and just for fun...). With 10-15vagabonds can give more strategies because the players will make pikes also. And if somebody make pikes then that player will have less swordsmans so reduced them. If i know well the barbarians are undefendable, they are die easily if attack them mass bows
(Xbows:S are that another topic. maybe they need faster reload or stronger shooting or larger defend point...)
If somebody use townhall school then they use lot of gold also. If a map doesnt have lot of gold then this could be problem in the not too late game also.

Now the prices are in this script:
-Need 2 scools minimum
-only one TH could working because abusing
-3-3 chests-3 times unit traing time +1min waiting time= rebel and rouge
-4chests +4times training unit in the schhol +1:20waiting time =1vagabond
-5chest+5times training unit in the school+1:30waiting time =1 barbarian
-Need to feed the early trained unit.


There are some futured plan also:
-rebuild
-unitcounter
-Th as losing option
-Ssecontd townhall shool(4thschool) is opened if the player has 2 vineyard+18binefields
-third thschool(5th) is opened if the players has 6 vineyard +54vinefields
-original TH building?

WEll i think to this isnt larger cheating than market where you can trade your gold for corn or leather jacket or horses. This Th usage has pro and cons also.

I hope we will have some testgame also to see could it work or not. I wouldnt like to say anything without tests...
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