Official KaM Remake Ideas topic

[GreatWhiteBear]

And then the pike men couldn't keep up and the archers were OP.
too stronghold like

[Lewin]

But I had a second idea, not sure about it, but it might work out.
Archers on a horse. (Longbow)
Faster moving archers with a little more defense (1 or 2 points) but more sensitive to pike man.

I think mounted archers would be way too powerful. Archers are already very very powerful and important in the game, their only weakness is you can run them down and kill them at close range. But if they were mounted they could outrun anyone.
Also, we'd need the sprites for any new units.

[Jeronimo]

1) Krom & Lewin -> There is a big issue respect mass Towers.
Many players spam towers in a way you need tons of archers/xbowmen to kill them prolonging games till eternity.
Also is not enough, because he appears with ALL his ranged units, make you run back, and later he repairs them easily.

I suggest limiting Max Towers according the number of Barracks you have.
Starting with 0 towers, then that Limit increases +4 for each Barracks.
In case 1 Barracks is destroyed, then that "Max build limit" drops -4.

Defensive matches are really boring, and most maps are made to play defensively (Lame at its best).
Fighting vs mass archers/crossbows is not big deal if you can attack them in close combat, but the Tower spam is a problem.

2) I would like to determinate which food will be placed in the Inn. I dont like that being automatic.
In every Inn, you would have the option to DENY the access of determined food.
It will help us to calculate the Condition we want our Citizens to have when they go out from Inn.

3) Woodcutters need a direct hotkey -> W (combined with "Space" which centers the building, you can quickly alter their rhythm).

4) Townhall: We still dont find a way to make this useful... without being cheesy in Multiplayer.
Units: Rebel, Militia, Slinger, Vagabund, Barbarian, Warrior.

A) Barbarian and Warrior must both have their own space and not appear switching "randomly" when last unit is trained.
In case programmers cant add a 6th space in Townhall, use Militia slot (since he can be trained at Barracks anyway).

B) How do we obtain them? The idea behind this building is to have fast units to stop an invasion we cannot handle with Barracks training (due lack of resources, or long waitings for recruits).
I suggest combining Gold chests + Idle citizens -> If you analyze it better you are killing 2 problems in 1 shot.

I read Lewin is thinking to add the Untrain option... but I opin that sounds a bit Unrealistic.
So, lets imagine to convert those homeless/lazy citizens (fisherman*cough*) into quick armed Units.
Since you previously paid for these guys at School, then it would be like if all prices at Townhall cost 1 additional gold chest.
The Black Market operates at Townhall: you purchase those weird equipments such as Sling or Iron axe but at a high cost.

C) Gold Chests: all same but Militia -1, its absurd how all these "quick soldiers" start with +25% defense, but Militia is the only guy with 0% defense). Anyway all units need a soft rebalance -> for instance Rebels has +5% att to Cavalry than Lance Carriers.

Rebel: 1 /Militia: 1 /Slinger: 2 /Vagabond: 3 /Barbarian: 5 /Warrior: 5
Militia (1) <-> Vagabond (3): Militia has only 35% attack, while Vagabond has 40% att / 25% def (from where?) and moves fast.
Check all info here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_an ... _Rebellion

*All IDLE citizens are treated as equal. No matter go enters the Townhall, he will be Re-trained.
*Training requires a TIMER (like School), to convert the citizen into a fighter based in the gold chests payed.

[caykroyd]

I don't see any reason for this. There is no advantage to changing it. If you stop planting, no more wheat will grow. If you stop cutting, the field will fill up with wheat. You cannot produce more wheat by adding this control. Seeding might feel like a waste of time, but if they don't do it, you will quickly run out of wheat to cut and no more will be growing. Please explain to me a tactic which involves using this. The woodcutter has this option so you can clear trees from an area, but you never need to clear wheat from an area.

Involving the woodcutter, what about making an option to only plant?
you may think that not useful, but really, if there was that option, you could save space in your town by putting two woodcutters one close to the other, one planting, the other cutting... Unlike the farmers, i suspect that would help because one would always be planting while the other always cutting without having to separate the buildings in order for one not to mess up the other one (although maybe because now they don't chop the same trees,etc it might not change so much)

[Lewin]

@Jeronimo:
1) You're doing it wrong if you're trying to destroy them with archers. The best way to beat tower spam is with militia spam. Get lots of woodcutters and carpenters and make lots of militia. It takes ~3 militia to empty 1 tower (because stones miss quite often, especially when the militia are running) so if you make 60 militia (only needs 60 trees to be made into axes) you can empty 20 towers, then march the rest of your soldiers (like pikemen and crossbowmen) straight into their base and destroy them. This tactic has always worked for me against tower spam. If you can empty 20 towers that should beat even the worst spam no problems. Also, if your enemy has made 20 towers, that means he has not made many other buildings. (so you can make a lot more) While he is making towers, you make weapons buildings and you will soon crush him. In my experience everyone is too scared to charge towers with militia, but I find it the most effective tactic.
I really don't want to limit towers, that seems stupid. I think it is quite balanced because building towers takes a lot of time, and you only need ~3 militia to empty a tower.

2) Can you explain a situation in which you'd use this? It sounds pointless to me.

3) Why? Are you really toggling them that often? (I only switch my woodcutter 1-2 times per hour maybe) I think there are far more important hot keys to be added than that. But eventually I'd like to add hotkeys for more things so we'll see.

4)
A) I think barbarians are special and should not be trainable. They are the elite units of KaM which you are only allowed to command at the start of the mission. Just my opinion.

B) But if it uses idle units, then I can still use the towerhall to spam cheap units by training 100 fisherman and converting them all. Also if there is a timer then it is a very slow way to make troops this way, so not good for emergencies. I think there is some promise in this idea though, when we get more of the game done we'll think about ideas like this. (there's so many other things to work on that I honestly don't care about balancing the townhall/siege equipment right now, they game is fine without them and they can always be added later)

C) The statistics on wikipedia are completely wrong. They are from the game manual but they hold very little resemblance to the combat system. Militia have 1 defence, (no armour) axefighters/bowman have 2, (leather armour), swordsman/pikemen have 3 (iron armour). Militia have 35 attack, the same as axefighters. They also have 3 hit points, like axefighters. In fact the only difference is that axefighters have 2 armour rather than 1. So I think militia are powerful enough to cost 2 gold. (also it would be stupid if rebels cost the same as militia, when rebels are so weak)

Involving the woodcutter, what about making an option to only plant?
you may think that not useful, but really, if there was that option, you could save space in your town by putting two woodcutters one close to the other, one planting, the other cutting... Unlike the farmers, i suspect that would help because one would always be planting while the other always cutting without having to separate the buildings in order for one not to mess up the other one (although maybe because now they don't chop the same trees,etc it might not change so much)

I don't think it would be useful. In the Remake woodcutters will detect when the other has taken the tree and go somewhere else (it will be even better in the next release) I don't think there is any use for a plant only option because you can't make them more efficient like this.

[Jeronimo]

1) Limiting Towers: I played Wololo Lake yesterday. And it was a really boring match. 1 guy simply built 10 towers in a row over the bridge and it was impossible to break in, since he also had Militia Spam protecting it... later he changed them for pure arrchers.
Lewin... I think there must be an option at Multiplayer Room, to delimit the max amount of Towers allowed.
Such as you did with PeaceTime (which goes from 0 to 120), I ask you to do the same with Towers (from 0 to 12).

Depending of map Size and Design, players will discuss whats the best Max Towers Limit.
Remember that there is often TeamWork, so in narrow maps their towers together make a decent Wall.

You said 60 militias, but I guess the enemy will have Archers or Militia spam as well (talking about fairly good players).
Also... since there is no Fog of War, that Kamikaze move can be highly anticipated.
I do suggest a Tower Limit Bar (at Multiplayer Room). I'd recommend from 0 to 12, similar to 0 to 120 min PeaceTime.

2) Citizens eat their food at the Inn following the default order: 1ºbread /2ºsausage /3ºwine /4ºfish.
As you know, each type of food recharges a different value to the citizen Condition.
Also... they will eat till they feel fully satisfied (full bar).

They start eating 1 bread/1 sausage (which completes them). The problem is that if you have, for instance NO bread, then they will eat 1 sausage/1 wine/1 fish -> a complete waste because sausuage+wine will leave them with 80% condition and then eat a fish which is pure economic lose (fish adds +60% bar).

I sometimes dont want to feed them fully to the 100%, what about just recharging their bars a 80%? -> Pure sausages+wines.
The best way in my opinion, is to allow the "tiny red triangles" at determined Inn, like the Storehouse has.

3) Yes. I watch over these guys preety often. Depending on forest situation, I change quickly their behaviour
But it delays us a lot when we have to watch over many isolated Woodcutters (those that only fell, or those who also plant).
You will understand this is needed, whenever you are battling and have to redirect your attention to economy.

4) A)Your opinion . I simply consider him another unit with "unique stats" that shouldn't be ignored.

B) You dont complain about spamming Militias (1 axe/1 gold chest) that have Charge ability, but you consider that Rebels (2 gold chests) would be a problem? I think its a contra-logic.
Anyway, this seems that will be considered for future releases, but not the 4th as you say.

C) Is there any thread in this website about Attack/Defense/Hit points information you are mentioning now?
I would like to read about the Militas x3 hit points stuff and similar. Does the Cavalry have +1 hit point?

And btw... its a pity that info about Militia -> they are overpowered: Consider training times and effectiveness...
KaM needs a Stats Rebalance, otherwise we will find the same & same cheap Armies forever.

*Are you & Krom the only developers (programmers)? or there is someone else in the Team?

[ThibbyRozier]

@Jeronimo
Look at the loader, there are 3 names on it under programmers.
Krom, Lewin and Alex.

[Krom]

Alex contributed to the project only in its early phase, back in 2008. But his contribution was vital for project, hence his name in Credits

[Itlerion]

Hi! , as jeronimo, i thnk that something must be done with the towers stuff.. like a maximum number or something

Then if you were trying to make it real as imposible (for example you want to put men that used the machines) you should know that is not real a battle with only axeman and crossbow, sending militia kamikase to get killed by rocks IS NOT REAL, it could be sometimes.. but always? always have to do the same thing? where is the variaton of tactics.

It cant be real that, if you dont have crossbowmen, you will lose the game. In fact in medieval ages, crossbow men were mostly mercenaries because the crossbow were expensive, plus the crossbow men were not very trained troops because it was easy to use that weapon instead of using a bow and arrow because it needed years of training, so, if you want realism, you should make some regulations and make that the tipical game doesnt consist in : build lots of towers, lots of axes and lots of crossbows... if you defend that, that inderectly means that you dont care about balancing the game in a military tactically way.. is people do always the same , troops like spearmen, archers, axe fighter and swordmen are totally uselles and they are only like decoration in the barracks, if you delete them, no one will cares, because no one make them, why? because they die by crossbow, or because is more cheap to use 1 axe and 1 men to suicide in a mass atack to towers.

So i repeat, if you want realism, you should make something with that. first of all, i would make militia 0 defense, they have no armour, so, why put them 1 defense? when the axe fighter has a shiel and a leather armour and only have +1 defense! :s that is not realism

You have done a REALLY great job adding things to the game and i am very greatfull, but it still need to be balanced in the military matter so it will be a more variating tactics game, now, how it is, it is a monotonous game IN THE MILITARY way. the economic is fine for me.

I really hope you consider what i wrote, cya

[caykroyd]

Hi! , as jeronimo, i thnk that something must be done with the towers stuff.. like a maximum number or something

Then if you were trying to make it real as imposible (for example you want to put men that used the machines) you should know that is not real a battle with only axeman and crossbow, sending militia kamikase to get killed by rocks IS NOT REAL, it could be sometimes.. but always? always have to do the same thing? where is the variaton of tactics.

It cant be real that, if you dont have crossbowmen, you will lose the game. In fact in medieval ages, crossbow men were mostly mercenaries because the crossbow were expensive, plus the crossbow men were not very trained troops because it was easy to use that weapon instead of using a bow and arrow because it needed years of training, so, if you want realism, you should make some regulations and make that the tipical game doesnt consist in : build lots of towers, lots of axes and lots of crossbows... if you defend that, that inderectly means that you dont care about balancing the game in a military tactically way.. is people do always the same , troops like spearmen, archers, axe fighter and swordmen are totally uselles and they are only like decoration in the barracks, if you delete them, no one will cares, because no one make them, why? because they die by crossbow, or because is more cheap to use 1 axe and 1 men to suicide in a mass atack to towers.

So i repeat, if you want realism, you should make something with that. first of all, i would make militia 0 defense, they have no armour, so, why put them 1 defense? when the axe fighter has a shiel and a leather armour and only have +1 defense! :s that is not realism

You have done a REALLY great job adding things to the game and i am very greatfull, but it still need to be balanced in the military matter so it will be a more variating tactics game, now, how it is, it is a monotonous game IN THE MILITARY way. the economic is fine for me.

I really hope you consider what i wrote, cya

That's a good argument to consider once more putting the siege equipment. I'm not a big fan of them, but certainly the attacker could use catapults to crush your towers and the defenders would be forced to fight your cats with ballistae because of the range.

[Itlerion]

thats what i am talkning about, MAYBE the developers can make available the siege weapons temporaly at the time they "figure out how to make someone uses the machine to make it real". Its a very important militry unit like for disable it just because it doesnt look real.

in your "to do " list must be : towers, militia and siege weapons to re-balance.. and maybe with that i will have no problem with cross and militia mass.. and i know i am not the only one that have realised that the game as became in that resumed type of tactic making all other units useles or "not good for bussines"

(L)

[batoonike]

I don't find countering mass towers + crossbowmen with militia overly realistic either. On many default multiplayer maps you can build a bunch of towers and then fill the narrow free land complitely with crossbowmen. Now if anyone moves closer they will be instantly killed by your first line of crossbows. If you charge milita in, first of all you won't be abled to make a 30x2 formation of militia. There is often room for like 8 militia in a row. Only way would be to charge them in directly. If you do that, crossbows kill majority of them before they even reach towers. Lets say you do empty all the towers, you have 2 options:
1) Send in... I dont know, knights? Lets say you have a bunch of knights. You send them in, they reach first row of crossbowmen, 80% of them die without ever hitting anything, because map is narrow and towers STILL block the way. And crossbowmen fill the entire corridor as far as you can see, you dont need many crossbows for that at all.
2) You try moving in your own crossbowmen. Boom, they die before ever shooting a bolt. Every time new line reaches the shooting range they die to defending crossbowmen, because standing units shoot earlier.

=> Youre screwed.

This is a matter of map design most of all. If the map was much more open, you would never reach the amount of towers and crossbowmen to cover it all up. On every reasonable multiplayer map there should be really wide ways from base to base, where you can outmanouver archers with any other unit. However you could still fill up your entire base with towers and crossbowmen, which some people do.

=> Thus you still need to limit the number of towers to... lets say 4 per every 50 serves, rounded up

And 120 minute peace? You can bump out 3 militias in 15 minutes without townhall, starting with 3 labourers and 7 serves. Bunch of crossbowmen and militia arrive at something like 45 minutes? Peace is what allows you to make bunch of towers. Youre not supposed to make towers in the first place Making towers means you're wasting resources that should go to attack. With the exeption of 1-3 towers that stop 1 militia from destroying your entire town. Every major RTS battles the problem of people massing towers in multiplayer.

[The Dark Lord]

Haha, I'm still not used to this new forum. It took me some time before I'd found the 'quote' button.

Anyway...

1) Limiting Towers: I played Wololo Lake yesterday. And it was a really boring match. 1 guy simply built 10 towers in a row over the bridge and it was impossible to break in, since he also had Militia Spam protecting it... later he changed them for pure arrchers.

Militia are useless to protect towers with. Only archers can do the job. If there are militia you don't need to be afraid. If you and your allies put all your archers behind each other those militia will die very quickly if they try to kill your archers. You'll only lose a few of them. Even when there are archers it is possible to break through. I always use 1 non-archer unit and put it IN RANGE of the hostile archers/crossbowmen. Then you can move your own archers forward and hit the enemies' archers. If he doesn't want them to die he has to retreat one tile, and that one tile is probably enough to get his towers in the range of your archers, allowing them to destroy it.
But if you play on Lake Wololo you're asking for a strategic cat and mouse game because there is only one narrow entrance.

Lewin... I think there must be an option at Multiplayer Room, to delimit the max amount of Towers allowed.
Such as you did with PeaceTime (which goes from 0 to 120), I ask you to do the same with Towers (from 0 to 12).

I know you are trying to convince Lewin but I just can't keep my mouth shut.
I think the required amount of towers to defend yourself strongly depends on the map. If you hate maps with narrow entrances you shouldn't play on them.

And btw... its a pity that info about Militia -> they are overpowered: Consider training times and effectiveness...
KaM needs a Stats Rebalance, otherwise we will find the same & same cheap Armies forever.

I disagree. I don't see why militia are overpowered (some people actually claim they are useless). I think they are fine as they are. They die fast but are useful to protect archers or run past watchtowers.

[GreatWhiteBear]

-.-
Militias aren't OP.
Lake Wololo has only one way to attack which is why I don't like the map, because you get situations like this.

[Itlerion]

-.-
Militias aren't OP.
Lake Wololo has only one way to attack which is why I don't like the map, because you get situations like this.

if they were not OP, why are they massed, OP is not only the stats, is the whole situation : stats, cost, time required to be trained and use.

Stats? it has 1 defense it should be 0 (no armour) cost? one single axe, time? one recruit and one axe and no armour needed? is the faster units to be trained at a very cheap cost, use? massing them in few time to kamikaze against towers, and die by other massed unit, the cross.

i am telling this, and i havent played taht "lake wololo" i am talkning in general, any map.

and trying to make you understand the weak points of realism that are in the game right now.