Single missions - What to do about them?

[Litude]

I'm sure most people here agree that the way the AI plays the single missions is far from the level in which we have gotten used to in the campaigns. The AI sometimes just stops building, troops are running around their town messing up their construction sites, the AI expands into your base etc.
Now naturally these bugs can't easily be fixed, but alternate approaches could be taken to at least minimize the destruction that the AI does to itself. Basically I've thought three approaches that I'd like to know what people think about

• 1. Keep things as they are
  Basically everything is left as it is, only changes that are done will be to block the fisherman's from missions without any water and rebalacing food amounts to include fish. Plus make sure that there are fish in the sea. Some misplaced buildings and/or road would also be fixed.
  
  2. Guide the AI
  This approach incorporates everything from the first option, but in addition to that, it adds defense positions for all of the AI players so that they won't mess up their troop placement. It would also change the way the AI groups its troops, as currently they are in quite huge stacks. In addition, the AI would also attack but the difficulty would be adjusted to account for this. Finally missions where the AI has a tendency to expand too much into your territory would have their storehouse position adjusted slightly so that they would expand in another direction instead.
  
  3. Make it pre-built
  In addition to what would be included in the second option, here the whole base of the AI would be pre-built so that there would be no chance for the AI to mess up during the process when it is building up.

Now if someone has something different/better, do not hesitate to suggest it. These are just what I've come up with. Note that I do not like the idea of replacing them with fan made missions. They may be of good quality, but that would be taking the patch even more to the direction of a mod.

Personally I think the second option is the best as it fixes some of the severe issues without changing the mission too much. If you let the AI build up properly (so no abusing of the save/load bug) and it starts attacking you, it should give you a good challenge.
As there are some people concerned that the patch is going too much towards the mod direction, I think this would be a quite neutral approach as it keeps the basics of the missions the same.

But enough of my opinions, I made this thread to hear your opinion!

[Lewin]

I am really not sure how to vote on this one. I can't decide between 2 or 3. I defiantly think we should do something to help the AI, but I'm not sure which.


Ok, I'm going with "Guide the AI". (even though I initally suggested and supported the pre-built option) I do like to see how the AI builds their bases, and that way they will auto repair, which is always more challenging. (destroying watch towers with archers is harder)

I would like to add though, make sure that the AI's defence at the start is strong enough so that you cannot sneak through and destroy their labourers/construction sites. (someone said this mucked up the auto build process)
Also, give them lots of labourers, (I would go for the maximum the AI can handle, 9) as that will make them build faster. If we fiddle with the AI settings we can make these missions pretty challenging.

Keep up the good work!
Lewin.
P.S. @Litude: Did you say you supported option 2? Then why is the only other vote than mine for option 1? Didn't you vote?

[Litude]

@Litude: Did you say you supported option 2? Then why is the only other vote than mine for option 1? Didn't you vote?

Yeah, forgot to cast my vote.

I would like to add though, make sure that the AI's defence at the start is strong enough so that you cannot sneak through and destroy their labourers/construction sites. (someone said this mucked up the auto build process)

It seems like the AI is capable of recovering from early raids for the most part. Sometimes they do unfortunately skip the building but IIRC kuba11100 pointed out that they no longer do this in 1.58. Preventing sneaking totally would be quite difficult without adding huge armies to the enemies (my intention was to keep them the same size as they are if only possible), but from testing your single scout can't get too mcuh destruction done before the AI has sent some troops to hunt for you (hit n' run might still work though, unfortunately ).

Also, give them lots of labourers, (I would go for the maximum the AI can handle, 9) as that will make them build faster. If we fiddle with the AI settings we can make these missions pretty challenging.

Well, from what I can gather the AI does build up at a quite okay speed mainly because they only build a few farms etc., but preventing people from winning the single missions by rushing could be hard...

[kuba11100]

Well, since 1.58 they build all buildings (before they stopped building at any time without a reason, skipped military buildings and some other), but more serious bugs are happening:
- AI stops building after: saving, closing the game, starting a game and loading.
- killing a laborer who's digging construction site can stop the whole building process for some time (one time it was above 1 hour!) or forever.
- If AI choose some uneven terrain to build there, the construction site will disappear and AI will stop building. (in (third ?) single mission without stone and gold mountains green enemy never builds anything after a sawmill!)

If it has to be neutral, then the best option is 2, but all that bugs make this option worse.

[Danjb]

Phew... it's been a while!

I like option 2. Maybe start them off with a few towers or something, or even the basic production buildings, but I like the idea of building up at more or less the same rate as them.

[Merchator]

Yeah, 2. is a good option in my opinion, too. There would still be bugs, of course, like the "saving-loading" one. But at all a singl mission is senceless somehow - or at least you don't need to build a defence. You can build up your city 3-4 hours, make a huge army and then you can sneak into the enemy base and destroy it. There is no difficult. So defence positions are very usefull when they are at tactical points.

Additional:
Maybe adding attacks to raise the difficult? Or a battle at the beginning of the mission? Adding allys? I am not sure about this, could make the missions more fun though...

Or we could make it easy and replace the existing missions with the best singleplayer missions out there - like the winner of the mision contests, the mission with the highest rate from Lewins mission site? :twisted:

[Nick]

I thought about this myself a year ago or somehting but never put effort in it.

For me defenitly option 2!


Things i would change:
General
Let the AI build multiple buildings instead of only 1 of each! [i think this will fix the close and restart building bug, not sure thought]
Maybe allow visibility to the whole map? I always love to watch the AI build and making that u are alot faster
Difficulty
Like in mission 1 the AI doesnt attack at all so u have a nice build only map where u can create your village as large as u want.
Mission 2 will have some fun small attacks but not hard at all.
Mission3 will have normal attacks like in TSK campaign
And so on... the last single map will be a hard one.
Allies
Give the player an allie in some missions. So u can have fun watching ur allie build and defend himself + attack your enemy's. U also will have the feeling u need to protect him
Defense
Defenitly add defend position
Maybe add some towers in the later single missions, so sneaking in is not possible and to avoid the player to rush


In response to previous comments:
- I would not add attacks from the beginning :S. A singleplayer map should be a regular build-up and defend, not direct action.
- Every player should start off with only 1 warehouse and no other buildings => so it's like a race for building the fastest and most efficient. Ofc towers would be an exception to this.
- About the stop building bugs. AI defense position would fix the sneaking and kill 1 laborer. For the terrain: maybe we should make it a little more flat where the AI has his starting spots?
- if u add some starting troops and defense positions, it will also hold the player from rushing cuz they have more AI players to face. If they kill one in a rush, they maybe won't survive an attack from another AI


Maybe we should make a small team of the best scripters to rescript these missions?

I'm still hesitating about implementing this in the patch or as an extra optional install... I would choose to include them in the patch cuz the single missions are just boring and stupid as can be :S

[Danjb]

I would not add attacks from the beginning :S. A singleplayer map should be a regular build-up and defend, not direct action.

I think this could work, perhaps in one or two maps. I quite liked some of the single player missions that start with battles as that way, if you do well in the fight, you have a slight well-earned advantage.

Every player should start off with only 1 warehouse and no other buildings => so it's like a race for building the fastest and most efficient. Ofc towers would be an exception to this.

Hmm... on the whole I agree with this, I only mentioned extra buildings as the AI might need a slight helping hand. I wasn't thinking anything past sawmill.

if u add some starting troops and defense positions, it will also hold the player from rushing cuz they have more AI players to face. If they kill one in a rush, they maybe won't survive an attack from another AI

I think I prefer the idea of starting buildings to starting troops (unless each team starts with the same troops)... I guess ideally there would be an option like in Multiplayer to decide...

[Nick]

Well here is a test release
Its single mission 4. I spend alot time on it to get it good as an auto build AI is very hard to get bugfree (start spot, streets etc).

You'll have alot a fun playing this mission! Even I rly enjoyed it after so many missions i played.
It's not hard at all, u got plenty of time to defend yourself. The AI right top is your allie.

I rly recommend u guys to play it. As it is not hard, its fun, unlike the original missions.
All the enemy's (exept buttom left and middle left as iron is too far from starting spot... I dont feel like changing the spot cuz i spend alot of time finding the right place) keep building and get stronger. Thier village isnt efficient but worth to look to, it faces close to human (humhum :p) u how longer the game last. Ofcourse not too powerfull like the last enemy of the normal single mission.

Play it!

If u got any suggestions or complains u can reply here

The whole map is visible cuz its just a test of how a single mission must have been in TPR ;p


download:
http://rapidshare.com/files/180132009/smission5.dat

[Litude]

Sounds great, I'll need to check that mission later. Don't know if you should be made have any allies in those missions, but perhaps that could be talked over.

[The Dark Lord]

I'll quickly write down my opinion:

I think you should leave the missions as they are. Perhaps adding some defence positions could be nice, but nothing more. I consider these single missions more like ''training missions''. It would be better to have a new menu button in TKE or KaM Remake with "Scenarios" or something, so we can put single missions or edited original single missions in there.
Just a suggestion though.

[Nick]

I dont care what we do about the single missions because i have made alot of modifications of original missions for myself. I just made this for an example of a more fun 'how it should been done' mission. Anyway i still choose for option 2 cuz other players might want to have a more fun mission with defense positions and small attacks :S.

Btw, we are talking about original kam so not TKE and KAM remake. No extra button is possible . Ofcourse in the remakes something like that should be added but thats not a high priority i guess...

[Lewin]

I think what Nick is doing would make a nice mod.

However, I don't think it should be part of SR3. I think all you should do is guiding the AI with defence positions, etc. and maybe make the AI "smart" auto build. (as Nick discovered in TSK 15) And perhaps you should add some attacks?

But what Nick is doing doesn't fit the description of SR3. (although it would make an awesome mod)
Lewin.

[Nick]

lol lewin... Smart build, atacks and defense positions is what i added :p nothing more.

Some roads and changed start pos so enemy won't get himsef stuck by building. Anyway if u going to change the build on original missions, they AI will get himself stuck most of the time so then better leave it as it is.

Btw, has anyone updated or worked on that unit editor? u know, where u can set the strength, speed of each unit etc... If not, is there anyone that can make a proper one without bugs :p krom, harold? xd

Maybe i will start a modification someday. It has not yet been done so it would be nice. I already have alot of modded maps

[Merchator]

Btw, has anyone updated or worked on that unit editor? u know, where u can set the strength, speed of each unit etc... If not, is there anyone that can make a proper one without bugs :p krom, harold? xd

Hmmm, I made another one some time ago. But due the fact that it is german language and text-based, I haven't released it yet. The good thing: I still have the sourcecode. So translating it into english shoudln't be a problem at all. I think it's less userfriendly at all and maybe it has less bugs. I'll think about a release in english language.