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The scout - How far should he see?

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Litude

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King Karolus

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Location: Finland

Post 18 Sep 2008, 21:11

The scout - How far should he see?

Okay we already had one dispute about this small yet so important thing, the line of sight of the scout. Thought a poll would hopefully be the way to settle it once and for all.
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Danjb

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Sword Fighter

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Post 18 Sep 2008, 21:35

I don't know a numerical value necessary to vote, but I think it should be the same as the knight, whatever that may be...

Unless other metal troops have a greater LOS than leather troops (i.e. swordsmen a better LOS than axe fighters), in which case the scout should have less than the knight by that same ratio.

Basically whatever makes it fit in best with the other soldiers, nothing outstanding.
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Litude

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King Karolus

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Location: Finland

Post 18 Sep 2008, 22:12

All other soldiers have 9 as their line of sight.
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Nick

Crossbowman

Posts: 240

Joined: 09 Jan 2007, 23:00

Post 19 Sep 2008, 10:46

For the scout i would say 14 (as its his name and main function in the game, but 18 is way too much indeed).



These are my speculations for all the units. I dont know whether u guys agree with this or not... It's mainly for my own kam that i make these modifications.
View radius is based on the units equip and function ingame, lemme know what u think about it...
SYNTAX: OLD value NEW value

[code]
- militia:
9   6

- axe fighter:
9   5

- sword fighter:
9   5

- bowman:
9   8

- crossbowman:
9   8

- lancecarrier:
9   5

- pikeman:
9   5

- scout:
18   14

- knight:
9   7

- barbarian:
9   6

- rebel:
9   6

- Rouge:
9   8

- vagebond:
9   9

- warrior:
9   5

- ballista:
9   2

- catapult:
9   2
[/quote]
PS: the view of ranged units is based on how far they can shoot. With these new values they see as far as they can shoot.
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merchant_992

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Pikeman

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Location: Rinsumageest, Nederland

Post 19 Sep 2008, 14:33

2 for ballista and catapult is not enough I think. I would say, all units standard 9 and scout 14.
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Danjb

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Sword Fighter

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Joined: 14 May 2007, 22:00

Post 19 Sep 2008, 15:14

I don't think scouts should have a sight advantage as it doesn't really fit with the game. Knights are mounted swordfighters, scouts are mounted axe fighters, why then should they have a larger LOS? I know they're called Scouts but I really think it's just for the sake of a name.

If there really was going to be a unit for the main purpose of scouting, surely it would have some kind of speed advantage (which scouts do not have over knights) or, more importantly, fighting disadvantage?

If ALL other units have a sight radius of 9, it makes sense to me that scouts should be the same.
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Thunderwolf

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Crossbowman

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Location: Netherlands

Post 19 Sep 2008, 15:35

I think 12 is the best. It does have the larger sight scout implies, but without the absurd advantage of, for example 18.
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kuba11100

Sword Fighter

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Joined: 16 Jul 2008, 22:00

Location: Poland

Post 19 Sep 2008, 16:27

I think that it should be 12 or less.
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merchant_992

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Pikeman

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Location: Rinsumageest, Nederland

Post 19 Sep 2008, 16:33

I think it does fit in the game. It is not just a name, but a name with a meaning. And they do have some fighting disadvantage, against lance carriers and pikes. So a little sight advantage for 1 unit is good.
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Danjb

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Sword Fighter

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Post 19 Sep 2008, 16:38

But that's not a disadvantage, as knights are the same, it's just an attribute of mounted troops.

I think if the original creators wanted "scout" to be more than a name, they would have done something about it.
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Litude

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King Karolus

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Location: Finland

Post 19 Sep 2008, 19:46

The fact that supports Danjb's theory is that the Scout was originally called just Cavalry. Still I think 12 is quite a good compromise, whilst no huge advantage it does allow you to see three more squares than any other unit in one direction.
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Location: In his dark thunderstormy castle

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 19 Sep 2008, 20:32

I agree with Danjb and vote for 9.

Try to think of another name for the Scout. It's not that easy. Cavalry was the best they could think of. But they didn't think about the knight, which is cavalry too... So ''cavalry'' was not a good name, because ''cavalry'' means: all mounted units. So the name had to be changed... Scout came out... Not perfect, but it's better than cavalry. Luckily it's only a name.

Yes, It's only a name. The worst ''improvement'' of SR2 was changing the LOS of the scout from 9 to 18. It is our (Litude's) job to make this ridiculous change undone.

A second argument, one which Danjb also mentioned, is the advantage of scouts. The scout has not been made weaker, stronger or faster, while the LOS was changed to 18. That means it is 1-0 for the scout. Are their eyes better? What is it that improves their sight? Is it because they are mounted and sit higher above the ground? No, because knights haven't got an increased LOS! What is it then? Oh, wait! It is the name...
Just like axe fighters and sword fighters, lance carriers and pikemen and archers and crossbowmen are scouts and knights practically the same. The difference is that a scout has weapons made of wood and leather, while the knight's weapons are made of iron. Should the scout have a larger LOS for some reason? Is there something to compensate? Are they weaker or less fast? Again: no.

There is nothing to compensate, so no reason to give an advantage.
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Fitz chevalerie

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Serf

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Location: France

Post 19 Sep 2008, 20:42

in French , the scout is called "cavalier" , but scout means "?claireur" ( so like a Pathfinder ?)... ?
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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

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Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 20 Sep 2008, 03:23

I voted for 12. I just think it's interesting to have a unit that can see a bit further than others. I don't think it is only because he is called the scout, but it means when you explore the map you will always try to use a scout.
3 extra squares is really not that noticeable.

I think this just makes the game more varied, but does not effect game play very much. Based on the votes it is the most popular, and it's quite a good compromise. (in the middle)

@Nick: I don't think that list of changes should go into SR3. Maybe into a mod, but not this patch. I think the idea of giving siege equipment a lot less is clever, because then you'd have to explore first with another unit. However, it wouldn't work because you can just find the buildings through the blackness (by clicking attack and waving your cursor around) and they will happily shoot at things that haven't been explored.
Lewin.
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The Dark Lord

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King Karolus Servant

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Location: In his dark thunderstormy castle

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Post 20 Sep 2008, 05:32

Lewin wrote:3 extra squares is really not that noticeable.


You see? No reason to make it larger than 9.
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