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Opinion about stuff in the English translation?

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Lewin

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KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3821

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

Location: Australia

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 08 Aug 2008, 02:49

Litude wrote:Posts keep getting shorter? Well, I'll have to do something about that. :twisted:
Just started wondering in what all places this capitalizing rule really should apply. Found a bunch of non-capitalized stuff that I'm curious as to whether it should be capitalized or not.
(Single map menu)
Start map -> Start Map
Back to menu -> Back to Menu

Hmm.. Yes I think you should capitalise stuff. Those ones should be changed.

Litude wrote:(Resolution selection)
Resolution in game -> ??? (Shouldn't it be in-game or something? And how does the capitalizing go?)
Not available -> Not Available (Should this be changed? Displayed on the resolution button when selecting unsupported resolution)

This one I'm not so sure about. I think "Resolution in game" sounds poorly translated anyway. How about just "Resolution" ? I know why they have the in game bit, because the menus are a different size. But I still think the In Game bit makes it sound clumsy.
Yes, I think Not available should be changed.

Litude wrote:(Multiplayer)
Select game type -> Select Game Type (Should this be changed too? Displayed when clicking multiplayer game)
Create new Account -> Create New Account (Unused, but if we ever get around to running a new lobby... :D)
Log in -> Log In (Or should it remain as "in" as in is a preposition?)
Enter game -> Enter Game
Create game -> Create Game
Start session -> Start Session
Select session: -> Select Session:
Join game -> Join Game
Search for games -> Search for Games

All these should be done, including Log In. As it is the last word it looks wrong in lower case.

Litude wrote:(Multiplayer maps)
Three continents -> Three Continents
Battle for coal -> Battle for Coal
Border rivers -> Border Rivers
Land of hills -> Land of Hills
Mountainous region -> Mountainous Region
Castle slaughter -> Castle Slaughter
Coastal encounter -> Coastal Encounter
Bridge disaster -> Bridge Disaster

Yes, good ideas.

Litude wrote:(Single map maps)
Across the desert -> Across the Desert
In a strange land -> In a Strange Land (you don't capitalize "a" or do you?)
Land of the quick river -> Land of the Quick River

No, the a should be left in lower case.

Litude wrote:(Game menu)
To Selection of buildings -> To Selection of Buildings
To Distribution of wares -> To Distribution of Wares
Go back -> Go Back

Good.

Litude wrote:Besides those oddities, here are some random suggestions:

Random is the right word. I disagree with most of these suggestions.

Litude wrote:Leave Program -> Exit Game(?) (Leave Program sounds quite Engrish to me for use in a game)
Quit -> Back (In the multiplayer menus)

Good. Not making fun of your English, but what do you mean by "Engrish"?

Litude wrote:Long shield -> Iron shield (Original German was surprisingly iron shield, why in the world this was called long shield is beyond me)

I am unsure about this one. Long shield is a medieval term, but the shields from KaM are just normal iron shields, not the long ones. So while I think Long shield sounds better, Iron shield is more accurate, so I'd go with that.

Litude wrote:Fisher's hut -> Fisherman's (Yeah I already suggested Fisherman's hut, but this is here merely to see which one is preferred. Fisherman's would probably follow more closely to the naming standards used in The Shattered Kingdom as Woodcutter's was also called Woodcutter's hut in the German game.

No, Fisherman's Hut is good. Unless that is too long, I really think we should leave it as that. And the fisherman's hut is really a hut, but the woodcutter's is a bit larger. Also, I always associate fishermen with huts on the cliffs, so it sounds good that way. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Litude wrote:Start attack. -> Start charge attack. (Changing the button to say only charge ended up feeling a bit empty. Charge attack is correct, or is it? :P)

No, it isn't!!!! Charge! is good in my opinion, and "Start charge attack" sounds really poorly translated and worse than what it was. If you really want to change it then how about "Start Charge". I still think Charge! is better though.

Litude wrote:Turn troop left -> Turn troop left. (Never understood why these two buttons lack the full stop?)
Turn troop right -> Turn troop right. (Same sense)

I don't think full stops are required on ANY of these button descriptions. After all, the text on the main menu doesn't say "Start Tutorial." "Exit Program." does it? So I think all these descriptions should have the full stop removed, as they are only one sentence so it isn't needed.

Litude wrote:Close window. -> Closes window. (Description for the close button in a received message. Changed to make the description fit with the rest of the button descriptions, check before commenting :D)

I agree with that change, it fits in better. Once again, I think the full stop is unnecessary.

As I said, I'll look through all the text thoroughly once the next beta is out. Also the next version of my LIB decoder will be out, and that'll make it easier to use. I have noticed a few mistakes but they will be easier to report once the Beta is out, as right now I don't know what has already been changed.
Lewin.
P.S. I have another suggestion, but it's not to do with the actual English translation. You know how when you select the Fisherman, he says "Your majesty" just like the scout does. Well, the butcher uses exactly the same sound file. I think it should be changed to another one of the scouts greetings, such as "SELECT2.snd" ("At your service") How to change these? Well, in the EXE at 000C0838 you will find a list of the sounds used by units. (in the same order as in the missions, so serf first, recruit last) The first value is the sound when you click on them, the next is when they die. If you're having trouble finding it then search for "militia\select3". If you scroll through the list, you'll find the butcher ("cavalry\select0") and then the fisherman. (same again) In my opinion, the best sounds for the fisherman would be SELECT2 and DEATH0, as they are different but not too different. Or if you like we could change them to something completely different. (e.g. the barbarians voice)
What do you think of this?
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Litude

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King Karolus

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Post 08 Aug 2008, 11:05

Lewin wrote:This one I'm not so sure about. I think "Resolution in game" sounds poorly translated anyway. How about just "Resolution" ? I know why they have the in game bit, because the menus are a different size. But I still think the In Game bit makes it sound clumsy.

In-game Resolution would also sound better. Resolution would still be the best.

Lewin wrote:Random is the right word. I disagree with most of these suggestions.

Heh :D

Lewin wrote:Good. Not making fun of your English, but what do you mean by "Engrish"?

Engrish

Lewin wrote:I am unsure about this one. Long shield is a medieval term, but the shields from KaM are just normal iron shields, not the long ones. So while I think Long shield sounds better, Iron shield is more accurate, so I'd go with that.

Your comment made me quite unsure what to do :D. Still iron shield does make more sense.

Lewin wrote:No, Fisherman's Hut is good. Unless that is too long, I really think we should leave it as that. And the fisherman's hut is really a hut, but the woodcutter's is a bit larger. Also, I always associate fishermen with huts on the cliffs, so it sounds good that way. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Okay.

Lewin wrote:No, it isn't!!!! Charge! is good in my opinion, and "Start charge attack" sounds really poorly translated and worse than what it was. If you really want to change it then how about "Start Charge". I still think Charge! is better though.

Okay I'll need to do some testing.

Lewin wrote:I don't think full stops are required on ANY of these button descriptions. After all, the text on the main menu doesn't say "Start Tutorial." "Exit Program." does it? So I think all these descriptions should have the full stop removed, as they are only one sentence so it isn't needed.

They might look better without the full stops, will need to check.

Lewin wrote:P.S. I have another suggestion, but it's not to do with the actual English translation. You know how when you select the Fisherman, he says "Your majesty" just like the scout does. Well, the butcher uses exactly the same sound file. I think it should be changed to another one of the scouts greetings, such as "SELECT2.snd" ("At your service") How to change these? Well, in the EXE at 000C0838 you will find a list of the sounds used by units. (in the same order as in the missions, so serf first, recruit last) The first value is the sound when you click on them, the next is when they die. If you're having trouble finding it then search for "militia\select3". If you scroll through the list, you'll find the butcher ("cavalry\select0") and then the fisherman. (same again) In my opinion, the best sounds for the fisherman would be SELECT2 and DEATH0, as they are different but not too different. Or if you like we could change them to something completely different. (e.g. the barbarians voice)
What do you think of this?

Great idea. Barbarian fisherman :twisted: ...NOT. That scout sound could be quite fitting.
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Litude

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King Karolus

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Joined: 01 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Finland

Post 10 Aug 2008, 20:25

Okay, I released beta 3. Unfortunately, the following messages didn't fit within a message and were cut:
[code]You need to secure a supply of stones before you can continue constructing buildings. Build a quarry near a stone mountain and then train a stonemason from the school to work in it.
Near the water you can also build a fisherman's hut which in turn will need a fisherman as its occupant. Eventually the supply of fish will run out.[/quote]

[code]Once the labourers have finished constructing the school house, you can train new citizens. To do this, left click on the school house and scroll through the units by using the 'next profession' and 'previous profession' buttons until you have selected the units which you desire to train. Then click on the 'Add to Queue' button. When trained, your new citizens will automatically start to perform their tasks.[/quote]

[code]Amongst ye rebels, innocent citizens do live. Do not allow thy troops to attack these peasants, they are not thine enemy. Concentrate instead thy troops upon the hostile soldiers and their supply of weapons. Shouldst thou perchance stop this weapon production, thy enemy troops wilt not be able to defend themselves.[/quote]

These are the ones I remember being forced to change. I could not by any means make the part about fish running out fit within the small limits of a message. Also the "Amongst..." message I couldn't fit in any possible way so I ended up replacing it with a temporary message.
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Lewin

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Post 11 Aug 2008, 10:18

Hi Litude,
Good job on beta 3, a lot more bugs fixed.
I've done another more thorough check of the files. Some of these things may be a bit pedantic, so just tell me if they are! As I've suggested rather a lot of changes, you need only reply to the ones you don't want to change or wish to discuss.
Let me know what you think...

Litude wrote:Okay, I released beta 3. Unfortunately, the following messages didn't fit within a message and were cut:
[code]You need to secure a supply of stones before you can continue constructing buildings. Build a quarry near a stone mountain and then train a stonemason from the school to work in it.
Near the water you can also build a fisherman's hut which in turn will need a fisherman as its occupant. Eventually the supply of fish will run out.
[/quote]
Oh, that's a shame. What you've written in beta 3 is a bit of a compromise, I think we should try to improve it and include the bit about fish running out. Ideas: We could put the whole thing about the fisherman's hut in another message (say the next one, after the bit about the woodcutter) I doubt that would work as that message is already quite long. We could put just the bit about fish running out here, and leave the rest of the message on the previous one.
Do you have any ideas? I suppose the current text is ok, but I'd rather it explains about the fish limit. Maybe it's unimportant, I don't know...

Litude wrote:[code]Once the labourers have finished constructing the school house, you can train new citizens. To do this, left click on the school house and scroll through the units by using the 'next profession' and 'previous profession' buttons until you have selected the units which you desire to train. Then click on the 'Add to Queue' button. When trained, your new citizens will automatically start to perform their tasks.
[/quote]
I think the way you've packed it down in beta 3 is fine. The explanation doesn't really need to mention both of the buttons.

Litude wrote:[code]Amongst ye rebels, innocent citizens do live. Do not allow thy troops to attack these peasants, they are not thine enemy. Concentrate instead thy troops upon the hostile soldiers and their supply of weapons. Shouldst thou perchance stop this weapon production, thy enemy troops wilt not be able to defend themselves.
[/quote]
What you've done is good, but I don't like the bit about military buildings. You seem to be saying that you should go and destroy their base, but mainly their military buildings. I would rather it say that you should specifically target military buildings, and leave the others alone. The rest of your message is good though, possibly better than mine. I have a suggestion:
[code]Our scouts report that thy enemy hath enslaved most of thine citizens in the area. Storm their defenses but destroy only their military buildings, leaving the innocent villagers in peace. This shouldst surely send thy enemy into glorious retreat and free thy citizens.[/quote]
The bit I wrote doesn't sound very old English, but I think it explains stuff better. Is that short enough? Maybe you'd like to work on this suggestion of mine, as it is in need of improvement.

Other changes suggested:

Setup.lib:

1:
Campaign 'The Shattered Kingdom' -> Play Campaign 'The Shattered Kingdom'
Campaign 'The Peasants Rebellion' -> Play Campaign 'The Peasants Rebellion'
I think that they these are a bit non-descriptive at the moment. And yes, these changes do fit. (just!) Do you think Play Campaign or Start Campaign would be better? (they both will fit ok) Play is the word used for the tutorial and single maps, but maybe start would be better for some variation?

93:
[code]~P~l~a~y~e~r '%s' h~a~s ~b~e~e~n ~r~e~m~o~v~e~d ~f~r~o~m ~g~a~m~e ~b~y ~t~h~e ~s~e~r~v~e~r~.
----
Player '%s' has been removed from the game by the server[/quote]
Used in multiplayer when the person hosting kicks someone. If I remember correctly the message actually looks like that, with all the ~'s. I think that looks silly and should be changed. Note: I haven't played multiplayer much so I'm not sure if this is correct, and it needs checking before it is changed. I could quite easily be wrong!

97:
[code]Property:
-------
Starting property:[/quote]
Sounds a bit clearer to me. What do you think?

100:
[code]None
-------
Minimum[/quote]
(Used for starting property, as apposed to troops, etc.)
You don't actually start with nothing do you? You have a storehouse, serfs, etc. So I think this is a better way to put it.

100:
[code]Produced weapons:
-------
Weapons produced:[/quote]
Sounds far better too me. I thought this was what it said in TSK, but maybe I'm wrong. I've checked up on this, and my version is defiantly better.

300: You should add the SR3 credits to the end of it.

350:
There is one less space before "Mission 1" here than the other missions. Should that be changed, to keep it more consistent? I doubt anyone will notice, but still...

350-363:
I don't like these briefings at all. "After our successful support of the farmers, we must free the remaining farmers." sounds terrible! If we improve them, and write them in the old English style, then I would be happy to try re-reading them. I have a good mic and I've already experimented with adding voices to the TPR troops. After all, the current reader is quite bad anyway. I miss the old guy from TSK... If you agree, then I'll change one of them and send file of me reading it to you, and you can decide if it's ok.

Text.lib:

50:
Loaves -> Bread
You don't have to agree with this, but I think loaves is a poor word to use. If you look in other parts of the game it is normally called bread. This is a major change so please say no if you like.

56-65:
Shouldn't these weapon titles be plural? If you look at all the other wares then you'll see that they are. (e.g. stones, sausages, skins, etc.) So why aren't the weapons called crossbows, pikes, swords, etc.?

100:
[code]The serf supplies your buildings with the necessary raw materials.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.
---
Serfs transport wares and weapons between all your different buildings and supply your troops with food.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.[/quote]
I think this is better, as the current one implies that serfs only take raw materials, when they actually transport everything. My version sounds less "engrish" too. (good word that, I've never heard it before. I am learning new English words from a Finish person... Strange? ;?)

101
[code]To produce tree trunks for the sawmill, you need the woodcutter.
The woodcutter carries out reforesting independently.
-----
To produce tree trunks for the sawmill, you need the woodcutter.
The woodcutter carries out reforesting automatically.[/quote]
I thought independently meant something else? Maybe not. It might sound more authentic with the original text, and less like a game.

106:
[code]The baker bakes bread in the bakery.
He also makes flour out of corn in the mill.
--------------
The baker grinds corn into flour in the mill.
He also bakes bread in the bakery.[/quote]
I think it sounds better that way around. (after all, that's the order in the production line) Also, I think grinds is a better word than makes.

110:
[code]To supply your laborers with enough material to construct roads and houses, the stonemason will hew and cut stones.
------------
To supply your laborers with enough material to construct buildings and roads, the stonemason will hew and cut stones.[/quote]
Buildings sounds better than houses. Or am I being to fussy?

171:
Call up settings -> Display settings
Don't know if this is used... Sound better like this to me.

Capitalizing menu buttons: (If any of these aren't menu buttons then tell me)
177: Quit mission -> Quit Mission
178: Go back -> Go Back
180: Quit mission -> Quit Mission

193: Match mouse speed. -> Set mouse speed
Dot isn't needed in this case, it looks messy. Also, match is wrong I think, set is better.

195: Change volume. -> Change volume
198: Music on/off. -> Music on/off
Dots not needed.

207: CD-Player -> Music Player
It's NOT playing off the CD, so why say it is? (could be changed in other languages too)

208: Previous track. -> Previous track
209: Next track. -> Next track
Dots not needed in descriptions like this, as there are few words and only one sentence.

211: Remove building/highlights -> Remove
This one sounded quite bad to me. Highlights doesn't suffice. I couldn't think of a better word to replace highlights with so I thought, it hardly needs to describe what it is removing, so why not just say Remove?

213: Road construction -> Place roads
215: Farming -> Place plough fields
219: Winefield -> Place winefield
These are the hover descriptions. I changed these because there weren't consistent. Also, I had no idea the plough field description said farming!! (yes, I checked in KaM) That sounds appalling.

215: Plough field -> Create Plough field
218: Lay out winefield -> Construct winefield
These are the descriptions for after you've clicked on them. They are now consistent with the road text, apart from plough field as it doesn't required resources, so it's hardly constructed.

225: Cancel current training. -> Cancel current training
233: Destroy selected building. -> Destroy selected building
Dots again... (if you're still not sure about this, then ask yourself: how come over half of the current hover descriptions don't have them? Also, the hover hints in windows don't have dots do they?)

237: Previous unit type. -> Previous troop type
237: Next unit type. -> Next troop type
240: Equip current unit type. -> Equip current troop type
(Buttons hover descriptions in barracks) Removed the dots, and I think troop is better than unit, as unit can mean serfs etc.

243: Add to queue. -> Add to queue - Don't think it's used, but anyway...
244: Next mercenary. -> Next mercenary
245: Previous mercenary. -> Previous mercenary
246: Hire mercenary. -> Hire mercenary
249: Switch on/off delivery of wares. -> Switch on/off delivery of wares
250: Switch on/off house repair. -> Switch on/off house repair
251: Building not available at this time. -> Building not available at this time
Dots...

253: Not occupied -> Unoccupied - Much better word for this case

255-265: Remove dots!! These look bad as hover hints!

271: Select target destination -> Select destination - Target makes it sound clumsy, although it might look bad with only 2 lines. Just an idea... Tell me what you think.

275, 277, 279, 281, 283, 285: Remove dots!!

301: To board distribution -> To wood distribution
302: Board distribution - Wood distribution
I am just objecting to the word board. It doesn't necessarily mean timber boards. (they could be made of another material) If timber won't fit then how about wood?

306: Message from player '%s': |'%s' -> Message from player '%s': |%s - Why should the message be in quotes? (this could also be changed in the other languages)

308: PAUSE -> PAUSED Meaning "Game is currently paused" Agree?

Nearly there.... Just in-game messages to go:

500:
[code]From time to time your citizens must eat. For this, you must construct an inn.
Be sure to locate the inn centrally, so it is easily accessible for all villagers.
-------
From time to time your citizens must eat. In order for them to do this, you must construct an inn for them.
Be sure to locate the inn centrally, so that it is easily accessible for all your villagers.[/quote]
Fixed a few things, sound better thought out.

I think that 501 and 604 should be merged, and 604 removed completely. Currently there is a huge rush of message at the beginning, that could be over whelming for beginners. The problem is, 604 is already on the limit. If you ask me, 501 isn't really needed. A later message explains the usage of the school, and it's fairly obvious that you must have enough gold for that. So how about you make 501 be the text of 604, and remove 604 completely. Do you agree?

[code]Now you have to construct a sawmill to process the tree trunks which the woodcutter has felled.
After doing that, you should train a carpenter who will work in the sawmill.
-------
Now you have to construct a sawmill to process the tree trunks which the woodcutter has felled.
After doing that, you should train a carpenter to work in the sawmill.[/quote]
who will sounds quite bad to me. I like to more.

[code]Now that you have secured your food deliveries, you should build a swine farm to produce meat and hides.
-------
Now that you have secured your food deliveries, you should build a swine farm to produce meat and skins.[/quote]
Skins is the official name, so why not use it? Sounds better too in my opinion.

[code]Now you should build a butcher's and a tannery to process the meat and skins. Once you've constructed these two buildings, your economy is doing well. One of your long-term goals should be the production of new weapons to defeat your opponents, so why not give it a try right now?[/quote]
I must say, very well done! Far better than the previous message. My only concern: It seems to imply that you should practice weapon production, even though there is no one to use it on. Maybe it should explain that there are two enemies to destroy? (although this message is already on the size limit, right?)

605: (end sentence only, to save space in this huge post)
[code]Remember, you must connect road to the front door of every building.
-------
Remember, you must connect the road to the front door of every building that you construct.[/quote]
Sounds better? Methinks so. :wink:

Phew! That's a lot of changes! Some of these might not be necessary, so feel free just to tell me so.
The only thing I haven't check thoroughly is capitalization, so I'll do that after the next beta.
Ah... It's nice to see another enormous post... I am waiting for your enormous reply.
Lewin.
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Litude

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King Karolus

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Joined: 01 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Finland

Post 11 Aug 2008, 20:03

Lewin wrote:Oh, that's a shame. What you've written in beta 3 is a bit of a compromise, I think we should try to improve it and include the bit about fish running out. Ideas: We could put the whole thing about the fisherman's hut in another message (say the next one, after the bit about the woodcutter) I doubt that would work as that message is already quite long. We could put just the bit about fish running out here, and leave the rest of the message on the previous one.
Do you have any ideas? I suppose the current text is ok, but I'd rather it explains about the fish limit. Maybe it's unimportant, I don't know...

I'm highly against the idea of adding a note to the woodcutter's message. If the fisherman's hut was required to be built it might work out, but no.
In my opinion, the note about fish running out is hardly necessary (there's no note about stone running out either :P j/k). Besides, I could almost swear that the fish does disappear from the water when you fish. Are you sure this doesn't happen?

Lewin wrote:What you've done is good, but I don't like the bit about military buildings. You seem to be saying that you should go and destroy their base, but mainly their military buildings. I would rather it say that you should specifically target military buildings, and leave the others alone. The rest of your message is good though, possibly better than mine. I have a suggestion:
[code]Our scouts report that thy enemy hath enslaved most of thine citizens in the area. Storm their defenses but destroy only their military buildings, leaving the innocent villagers in peace. This shouldst surely send thy enemy into glorious retreat and free thy citizens.

The bit I wrote doesn't sound very old English, but I think it explains stuff better. Is that short enough? Maybe you'd like to work on this suggestion of mine, as it is in need of improvement.[/quote]
This is good, but now it lacks the mention of you having to also defeat all soldiers to win the mission (IIRC this was necessary, but then again my memory might be failing me...). Then again, I guess they should be dead by the time you destroy their buildings :D. Also the message I did was pretty close to being too long, so there's not much room for expansion.

Just did some small change to make it sound more old English. Do you think settlers is ok to use? It gives a nice variation.
[code]Our scouts report that thy enemy hath enslaved most of thine citizens in the area. Storm their defenses but destroy only their military buildings, leaving thine enslaved settlers unharmed. This shouldst surely send thy enemy into glorious retreat and free thy citizens.[/quote]

Lewin wrote:1:
Campaign 'The Shattered Kingdom' -> Play Campaign 'The Shattered Kingdom'
Campaign 'The Peasants Rebellion' -> Play Campaign 'The Peasants Rebellion'
I think that they these are a bit non-descriptive at the moment. And yes, these changes do fit. (just!) Do you think Play Campaign or Start Campaign would be better? (they both will fit ok) Play is the word used for the tutorial and single maps, but maybe start would be better for some variation?

Whilst this change does make the line better, I see nothing wrong with the original. I like the fact that there's room for expanding the text as future custom campaigns will no doubt make use of your LIB editor to change this text, and who knows whether the campaign names will be slightly longer. They could just drop the "Play" part but it would make the thing inconsistent :wink:.
And on another note, I think excluding the play and start part from these buttons gives a nice variation IMO.

Lewin wrote:93:
[code]~P~l~a~y~e~r '%s' h~a~s ~b~e~e~n ~r~e~m~o~v~e~d ~f~r~o~m ~g~a~m~e ~b~y ~t~h~e ~s~e~r~v~e~r~.
----
Player '%s' has been removed from the game by the server

Used in multiplayer when the person hosting kicks someone. If I remember correctly the message actually looks like that, with all the ~'s. I think that looks silly and should be changed. Note: I haven't played multiplayer much so I'm not sure if this is correct, and it needs checking before it is changed. I could quite easily be wrong![/quote]
IIRC the ~ symbol was a "color code" to make the next letter red or something. Should be tested though.

Lewin wrote:97:
[code]Property:
-------
Starting property:

Sounds a bit clearer to me. What do you think?[/quote]
Yeah.

Lewin wrote:100:
[code]None
-------
Minimum

(Used for starting property, as apposed to troops, etc.)
You don't actually start with nothing do you? You have a storehouse, serfs, etc. So I think this is a better way to put it.[/quote]
Whilst I'd like the None to be changed, I don't like Minimum at all. IMO "Storehouse" would be quite good (common sense should say that you have to start with serfs and laborers too).

Lewin wrote:100:
[code]Produced weapons:
-------
Weapons produced:

Sounds far better too me. I thought this was what it said in TSK, but maybe I'm wrong. I've checked up on this, and my version is defiantly better.[/quote]
Alright, what about changing "Buildings completed:" -> "Buildings constructed:"?

Lewin wrote:300: You should add the SR3 credits to the end of it.

Yeah, didn't have time to gather names and permissions to write them for beta 3.

Lewin wrote:350:
There is one less space before "Mission 1" here than the other missions. Should that be changed, to keep it more consistent? I doubt anyone will notice, but still...

Oh yeah I was about to check whether this actually affected the game but then my computer crashed on me and I had to reboot and forgot :D.

Lewin wrote:350-363:
I don't like these briefings at all. "After our successful support of the farmers, we must free the remaining farmers." sounds terrible! If we improve them, and write them in the old English style, then I would be happy to try re-reading them. I have a good mic and I've already experimented with adding voices to the TPR troops. After all, the current reader is quite bad anyway. I miss the old guy from TSK... If you agree, then I'll change one of them and send file of me reading it to you, and you can decide if it's ok.

Yeah, a sample is needed before we venture here.

Lewin wrote:Loaves -> Bread
You don't have to agree with this, but I think loaves is a poor word to use. If you look in other parts of the game it is normally called bread. This is a major change so please say no if you like.

Nah, I'd rather not change stuff like this unless they are more than just slightly off.

Lewin wrote:56-65:
Shouldn't these weapon titles be plural? If you look at all the other wares then you'll see that they are. (e.g. stones, sausages, skins, etc.) So why aren't the weapons called crossbows, pikes, swords, etc.?

It's more than just the weapons which aren't plural afaik, iron, gold ore etc. Need to do some checking on this (like what the German version calls them and such).

Lewin wrote:100:
[code]The serf supplies your buildings with the necessary raw materials.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.
---
Serfs transport wares and weapons between all your different buildings and supply your troops with food.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.

I think this is better, as the current one implies that serfs only take raw materials, when they actually transport everything. My version sounds less "engrish" too. (good word that, I've never heard it before. I am learning new English words from a Finish person... Strange? ;?)[/quote]
Hmm... Somehow mentioning all those three things in a single sentence makes the sentence sounds slightly clumsy to me. Personally, I don't see any grammatical errors in the original so I'd suggest expanding the original as I quite like the way the description is set up.
[code]The serf supplies your buildings with the necessary raw materials. He also carries weaponry to the barracks and feeds hungry soldiers.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.[/quote]
And it's Finnish damnit :twisted:.

Lewin wrote:101
[code]To produce tree trunks for the sawmill, you need the woodcutter.
The woodcutter carries out reforesting independently.
-----
To produce tree trunks for the sawmill, you need the woodcutter.
The woodcutter carries out reforesting automatically.

I thought independently meant something else? Maybe not. It might sound more authentic with the original text, and less like a game.[/quote]
This somewhat changes the meaning of the message. I think the purpose of this message was to make players know that you do not need an additional worker to do the reforesting (unlike the original Forester's house), but that the woodcutter is capable of doing this himself.
Changing this to automatically changes the meaning and I do not see this change as necessary.

Lewin wrote:106:
[code]The baker bakes bread in the bakery.
He also makes flour out of corn in the mill.
--------------
The baker grinds corn into flour in the mill.
He also bakes bread in the bakery.

I think it sounds better that way around. (after all, that's the order in the production line) Also, I think grinds is a better word than makes.[/quote]
Great idea.

Lewin wrote:110:
[code]To supply your laborers with enough material to construct roads and houses, the stonemason will hew and cut stones.
------------
To supply your laborers with enough material to construct buildings and roads, the stonemason will hew and cut stones.

Buildings sounds better than houses. Or am I being to fussy?[/quote]
Good idea.

Lewin wrote:171:
Call up settings -> Display settings
Don't know if this is used... Sound better like this to me.

I searched for this prior to releasing beta 3, A LOT. And I'm pretty much ready to say it's not used.

Lewin wrote:Capitalizing menu buttons: (If any of these aren't menu buttons then tell me)
177: Quit mission -> Quit Mission
178: Go back -> Go Back
180: Quit mission -> Quit Mission

Well, I kinda hoped you'd tell me whether these are menu buttons :D. Because of being unsure is the reason why I didn't change them.

Lewin wrote:193: Match mouse speed. -> Set mouse speed
Dot isn't needed in this case, it looks messy. Also, match is wrong I think, set is better.

My suggestion is change. This is also used for the other options.

Lewin wrote:195: Change volume. -> Change volume
198: Music on/off. -> Music on/off
Dots not needed.

Need to do some checking before I decide whether to go dotted or not :P.

Lewin wrote:207: CD-Player -> Music Player
It's NOT playing off the CD, so why say it is? (could be changed in other languages too)

As long as it says track, CD-Player might fit better, though not quite sure :P.

Lewin wrote:211: Remove building/highlights -> Remove
This one sounded quite bad to me. Highlights doesn't suffice. I couldn't think of a better word to replace highlights with so I thought, it hardly needs to describe what it is removing, so why not just say Remove?

Blueprints?

Lewin wrote:213: Road construction -> Place roads
215: Farming -> Place plough fields
219: Winefield -> Place winefield
These are the hover descriptions. I changed these because there weren't consistent. Also, I had no idea the plough field description said farming!! (yes, I checked in KaM) That sounds appalling.

Yeah some of those were really bad. What the hell is a plough field? Shouldn't it be "Place ploughed fields"? Plough is a verb, not a substantive afaik.
Also is winefield winefields in plural? If it is, this should be changed.

Lewin wrote:215: Plough field -> Create Plough field
218: Lay out winefield -> Construct winefield
These are the descriptions for after you've clicked on them. They are now consistent with the road text, apart from plough field as it doesn't required resources, so it's hardly constructed.

Huh, "Create Plough field" cannot be correct? Plough is a verb isn't it? At least you plough fields here in Finland :P.
Btw, isn't winefield two words? Wine field.

Lewin wrote:225: Cancel current training. -> Cancel current training
233: Destroy selected building. -> Destroy selected building
Dots again... (if you're still not sure about this, then ask yourself: how come over half of the current hover descriptions don't have them? Also, the hover hints in windows don't have dots do they?)

Because Knights and Merchants isn't Windows? :P Still I'll have to look into this.

Lewin wrote:237: Previous unit type. -> Previous troop type
237: Next unit type. -> Next troop type
240: Equip current unit type. -> Equip current troop type
(Buttons hover descriptions in barracks) Removed the dots, and I think troop is better than unit, as unit can mean serfs etc.

Shouldn't it be soldier? A troop is a group of soldiers isn't it?

Lewin wrote:253: Not occupied -> Unoccupied - Much better word for this case

Good idea

Lewin wrote:271: Select target destination -> Select destination - Target makes it sound clumsy, although it might look bad with only 2 lines. Just an idea... Tell me what you think.

Sounds better.

Lewin wrote:301: To board distribution -> To wood distribution
302: Board distribution - Wood distribution
I am just objecting to the word board. It doesn't necessarily mean timber boards. (they could be made of another material) If timber won't fit then how about wood?

Okay.

Lewin wrote:306: Message from player '%s': |'%s' -> Message from player '%s': |%s - Why should the message be in quotes? (this could also be changed in the other languages)

Well in Finnish and Swedish it's correct usage of : to put the text someone said in quotes. I'm also assuming this is correct in German as that is where this most likely originates from. Now I wouldn't go swearing what the case is in English.

Lewin wrote:308: PAUSE -> PAUSED Meaning "Game is currently paused" Agree?

Well this could be an endless argument. The game is still on PAUSE when it is written on the screen, but you PAUSED the game... Sometimes I confuse even myself :P.

Lewin wrote:500:
[code]From time to time your citizens must eat. For this, you must construct an inn.
Be sure to locate the inn centrally, so it is easily accessible for all villagers.
-------
From time to time your citizens must eat. In order for them to do this, you must construct an inn for them.
Be sure to locate the inn centrally, so that it is easily accessible for all your villagers.

Fixed a few things, sound better thought out.[/quote]
Definitely, good work! I so hated that for this part. That "for them" part is unnecessary and IMO it sounds better without it.

Lewin wrote:I think that 501 and 604 should be merged, and 604 removed completely. Currently there is a huge rush of message at the beginning, that could be over whelming for beginners. The problem is, 604 is already on the limit. If you ask me, 501 isn't really needed. A later message explains the usage of the school, and it's fairly obvious that you must have enough gold for that. So how about you make 501 be the text of 604, and remove 604 completely. Do you agree?

Yeah I also feel the same, the start of the tutorial is too overwhelmed with messages. Need to look into.

Lewin wrote:[code]Now you have to construct a sawmill to process the tree trunks which the woodcutter has felled.
After doing that, you should train a carpenter who will work in the sawmill.
-------
Now you have to construct a sawmill to process the tree trunks which the woodcutter has felled.
After doing that, you should train a carpenter to work in the sawmill.

who will sounds quite bad to me. I like to more.[/quote]
Okay, but I still like who will work :D.

Lewin wrote:[code]Now that you have secured your food deliveries, you should build a swine farm to produce meat and hides.
-------
Now that you have secured your food deliveries, you should build a swine farm to produce meat and skins.

Skins is the official name, so why not use it? Sounds better too in my opinion.[/quote]
Okay.

Lewin wrote:[code]Now you should build a butcher's and a tannery to process the meat and skins. Once you've constructed these two buildings, your economy is doing well. One of your long-term goals should be the production of new weapons to defeat your opponents, so why not give it a try right now?

I must say, very well done! Far better than the previous message. My only concern: It seems to imply that you should practice weapon production, even though there is no one to use it on. Maybe it should explain that there are two enemies to destroy? (although this message is already on the size limit, right?)[/quote]
Well that depends a bit on how you look at it... There's not room to add a single additional word to that message so adding two would mean cutting something else.

Lewin wrote:605: (end sentence only, to save space in this huge post)
[code]Remember, you must connect road to the front door of every building.
-------
Remember, you must connect the road to the front door of every building that you construct.

Sounds better? Methinks so. :wink:[/quote]
Forgot to add that the to that road in beta 3 :x. The latter part will make the message too long.

Hey and now that I reconsidered, shouldn't To Options, To Selection of Wares etc. all be written in small letters as they are just the descriptions for what the buttons do?
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KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 12 Aug 2008, 05:00

Hi Litude,
I think some of the stuff I suggested in the last post was a bit pointless.

Litude wrote:I'm highly against the idea of adding a note to the woodcutter's message. If the fisherman's hut was required to be built it might work out, but no. In my opinion, the note about fish running out is hardly necessary (there's no note about stone running out either :P j/k). Besides, I could almost swear that the fish does disappear from the water when you fish. Are you sure this doesn't happen?

No, not really. :D Ok, I've thought about it and it is unnecessary. Leave the bit about running out of fish out.

Litude wrote:This is good, but now it lacks the mention of you having to also defeat all soldiers to win the mission (IIRC this was necessary, but then again my memory might be failing me...). Then again, I guess they should be dead by the time you destroy their buildings :D. Also the message I did was pretty close to being too long, so there's not much room for expansion.

Just did some small change to make it sound more old English. Do you think settlers is ok to use? It gives a nice variation.
[code]Our scouts report that thy enemy hath enslaved most of thine citizens in the area. Storm their defenses but destroy only their military buildings, leaving thine enslaved settlers unharmed. This shouldst surely send thy enemy into glorious retreat and free thy citizens.
[/quote]
Ah... that's a good one. Leave it like that, I like it.

Litude wrote:Whilst this change does make the line better, I see nothing wrong with the original. I like the fact that there's room for expanding the text as future custom campaigns will no doubt make use of your LIB editor to change this text, and who knows whether the campaign names will be slightly longer. They could just drop the "Play" part but it would make the thing inconsistent :wink:.
And on another note, I think excluding the play and start part from these buttons gives a nice variation IMO.

Yeah, variation is good. IMO it looks a tiny bit strange now, but not a problem. Leave it as is.

Litude wrote:[code]~P~l~a~y~e~r '%s' h~a~s ~b~e~e~n ~r~e~m~o~v~e~d ~f~r~o~m ~g~a~m~e ~b~y ~t~h~e ~s~e~r~v~e~r~.

IIRC the ~ symbol was a "color code" to make the next letter red or something. Should be tested though.[/quote]
Yes, you're right. By default the lobby text is white, ~ makes the next char yellow. But in the process of testing it I noticed a mistake! There is no ~ before the h in has. Should be fixed, as it currently appears white. BTW: do you think the text saying "player" is needed? Why not just "Lewin has been removed from the game by the server."? Sounds far to me better than "Player 'Lewin' has been removed from the game by the server."

Litude wrote:Whilst I'd like the None to be changed, I don't like Minimum at all. IMO "Storehouse" would be quite good (common sense should say that you have to start with serfs and laborers too).

Yeah, I agree that minimum isn't so good. What about "Storehouse" "Storehouse and troops" and "Village and troops". That is a far better description of what each thing does. I think that serfs and a given, and don't need to be explained.

Litude wrote:Alright, what about changing "Buildings completed:" -> "Buildings constructed:"?

Yes, good idea.

Litude wrote:Yeah, didn't have time to gather names and permissions to write them for beta 3.

Sorry, I didn't mean to nag you, I was just reminding.

Litude wrote:Oh yeah I was about to check whether this actually affected the game but then my computer crashed on me and I had to reboot and forgot :D.

Ok, I just tested it for you. No, there is no reason for the difference. In my opinion, you should make mission 1 be the same as the others, and then add 5 extra spaces to each one. This means that the header is now bang in the middle, and not half way across. It also makes it easier to read, as it's now over the blue water and not the multicoloured land. I tested this with double and single character mission numbers, and it looks fine for both. Do you agree with this?

Litude wrote:Yeah, a sample is needed before we venture here.

Yes, it'd be difficult do to. This should be a low priority task.

Litude wrote:Nah, I'd rather not change stuff like this unless they are more than just slightly off.

Yeah, ok.

Litude wrote:It's more than just the weapons which aren't plural afaik, iron, gold ore etc. Need to do some checking on this (like what the German version calls them and such).

That's where your wrong! The word gold IS plural. The singular would be a piece of gold or a chest of gold. After all, you would never say "the serf took a gold to the school" would you? And you wouldn't say "I have lots of golds in my school house", you would say "I have lots of gold in my school house". The same rule applies for ALL the others. (iron ore, timber, coal, corn, leather, and so on...) None of these words work with an S on the end and none of them are singular. Do you understand me? So why can't the weapons be too? It sounds strange to say 5 crossbow. I am right about this one, and I am prepared to argue it. :twisted:

Litude wrote:Hmm... Somehow mentioning all those three things in a single sentence makes the sentence sounds slightly clumsy to me. Personally, I don't see any grammatical errors in the original so I'd suggest expanding the original as I quite like the way the description is set up.
[code]The serf supplies your buildings with the necessary raw materials. He also carries weaponry to the barracks and feeds hungry soldiers.
Note that a connecting road must exist between the buildings.

And it's Finnish damnit :twisted:.[/quote]
Oops! I did know that there are two n's, but I'm so used to writting finish (as the other meaning) that I forgot this time. Sorry.
Personally I prefer referring to all the serfs. (serfs supply your.... not The serfs) Makes it sound like you have one super serfs that does everything. :wink: Still, what you have written is much better than what I did. I felt the original one didn't explain everything properly.

Litude wrote:This somewhat changes the meaning of the message. I think the purpose of this message was to make players know that you do not need an additional worker to do the reforesting (unlike the original Forester's house), but that the woodcutter is capable of doing this himself.
Changing this to automatically changes the meaning and I do not see this change as necessary.

Ok, leave it.

Litude wrote:I searched for this prior to releasing beta 3, A LOT. And I'm pretty much ready to say it's not used.

Didn't think so... No change needed then.

Litude wrote:Well, I kinda hoped you'd tell me whether these are menu buttons :D. Because of being unsure is the reason why I didn't change them.

Ok, I've tested it.
180 is the one used on the button under options, and must be capitol.
177 is then used on a button once you've clicked on quit once, should be capitol
178 is a button, should be capitol
(Note: These ones are also used for the hover descriptions, but as the button is the most obvious I still say they should be capitol.
165 is only used as the hover text for the back button when your in options, build, statistics, etc. It should be lower case. (it's currently capitol)
Make sense?
This whole case thing is really bugging me. Buttons should defiantly be. Hover descriptions shouldn't be. Major titles should be. Some smaller header/titles could be (e.g. should Construct Road be capitol? I think it should)

Litude wrote:My suggestion is change. This is also used for the other options.

Good idea.

Litude wrote:Need to do some checking before I decide whether to go dotted or not :P.

I still say no. If you had multiple sentences then things would be different. With only a few words the full stop looks silly.
I've made a few screenshots of hover hints where there is NOT a dot:
Windows file browser
Firefox
Warcraft III. The short hint has no dot, only the detailed description with multiple sentences.
Warcraft III again, same thing in a different case
The Gimp (image editor)
Empire Earth - Main menu
How many hover hints can you find with full stops? I'd like to see the screenshots.

Litude wrote:As long as it says track, CD-Player might fit better, though not quite sure :P.

Uh.. I think that CD is confusing. People may try putting a music CD in so KaM can play it. Track doesn't necessarily mean CD, it has come to mean other things. I don't like CD player, but that's just my opinion.

Litude wrote:Blueprints?

Nah... blue prints are the documents of plans, not the pegs in the ground marking where to build stuff. I'm not too happy about this string, and I haven't got a better suggestion.

Litude wrote:Yeah some of those were really bad. What the hell is a plough field? Shouldn't it be "Place ploughed fields"? Plough is a verb, not a substantive afaik.
Also is winefield winefields in plural? If it is, this should be changed.
Huh, "Create Plough field" cannot be correct? Plough is a verb isn't it? At least you plough fields here in Finland :P.
Btw, isn't winefield two words? Wine field.

Hmm... I never thought of it before, but you're kind of right. You see, I've been playing KaM for ages, and so plough field has become part of my vocabulary. Thinking about it now, it sounds quite odd. Plough fields isn't totally incorrect, (plough can be a noun. e.g. a plough) but it isn't good either. (a plough field could be a field where you grow ploughs) Ploughed field doesn't sound brilliant either. How about we go for a major change: Corn fields. After all, you could grow anything in a ploughed field, but a corn field can only mean one thing...
Winefield isn't technically a word, so change it to wine field.
Yes, plural is wine fields.
So my suggestion for these strings:
Construct Road
Create Corn Field
Create Wine Field
What do you think?

Litude wrote:Because Knights and Merchants isn't Windows? :P Still I'll have to look into this.

Yeah, but it's a game running on Windows. And it's the same in Linux (hovers don't have dots) and I assume macs are the same. The OS should set the standard.

Litude wrote:Shouldn't it be soldier? A troop is a group of soldiers isn't it?

It can mean either. Still, soldier is better anyway.

Litude wrote:
Lewin wrote:271: Select target destination -> Select destination - Target makes it sound clumsy, although it might look bad with only 2 lines. Just an idea... Tell me what you think.

Sounds better.

I had another idea:
273: Select attack target -> Select target
It's pretty obvious that it's an attack target, so why say so? Target is often a word used in war like situations so I think this would fit nicely.
Similarly:
272: Select target group -> Select group
That one I'm not so sure on. What do you reckon?
I was thinking: It might be necessary to add a new line before these strings that we have removed one line on. Otherwise there is a gap bellow the text. I checked this and I think it looks better with the new line at the start.

Litude wrote:Well in Finnish and Swedish it's correct usage of : to put the text someone said in quotes. I'm also assuming this is correct in German as that is where this most likely originates from. Now I wouldn't go swearing what the case is in English.

Yes, if your quoting someone or something. But if you receive a message, the standard way that games use is "Lewin: Hello Litude!" (not quotes) but KaM isn't like that. So just leave it I guess, doesn't really matter anyway.

Litude wrote:Well this could be an endless argument. The game is still on PAUSE when it is written on the screen, but you PAUSED the game... Sometimes I confuse even myself :P

Oh, I never thought of it as "Game on pause". Ok, to prevent an argument lets leave it as is. It is understandable each way.

Litude wrote:Definitely, good work! I so hated that for this part. That "for them" part is unnecessary and IMO it sounds better without it.

Yes, it sounds far better without it. Remove it.

Litude wrote:Yeah I also feel the same, the start of the tutorial is too overwhelmed with messages. Need to look into.

Another way you could make it less overwhelming is to spread them out a bit more. e.g. The ones added in SR2 come within about 10 seconds of each other. For a beginner there is no way they could read the first message, click build and place the school in that much time. So I suggest you remove the one explaining what the school is for, (replace it with the one that explains how to build) and spread the other out more. (about 20 seconds in between messages would be good)

Litude wrote:Okay, but I still like who will work :D.

Well, if you like it that much then you can leave it. I still prefer it this way though.

Litude wrote:Well that depends a bit on how you look at it... There's not room to add a single additional word to that message so adding two would mean cutting something else.

Ok then. I guess it's pretty good. BTW: do you think it sounds better to say "your economy is going well"? (rather than doing well) I'm not quite sure...

Litude wrote:Forgot to add that the to that road in beta 3 :x. The latter part will make the message too long.

Ok, forget the latter part then.

Litude wrote:Hey and now that I reconsidered, shouldn't To Options, To Selection of Wares etc. all be written in small letters as they are just the descriptions for what the buttons do?

Yes they should. After all, that's the standard that windows uses (hover hints are not capitalised) Unless you think we should make KaM different because it is not Windows.
Now all the really obvious mistakes have been fixed I think. I will look out for more things to correct every time I played.
Lewin.
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Post 12 Aug 2008, 13:16

Lewin wrote:No, not really. :D Ok, I've thought about it and it is unnecessary. Leave the bit about running out of fish out.

Yeah and it's not such a disaster if the player doesn't instantly realize it. You need to learn from making mistakes, right? :wink:

Lewin wrote:Ah... that's a good one. Leave it like that, I like it.

Now I just need to hope it's not too long :(.

Lewin wrote:Yes, you're right. By default the lobby text is white, ~ makes the next char yellow. But in the process of testing it I noticed a mistake! There is no ~ before the h in has. Should be fixed, as it currently appears white. BTW: do you think the text saying "player" is needed? Why not just "Lewin has been removed from the game by the server."? Sounds far to me better than "Player 'Lewin' has been removed from the game by the server."

Right, the h has to be colored, player removed and quotes removed.

Lewin wrote:Yeah, I agree that minimum isn't so good. What about "Storehouse" "Storehouse and troops" and "Village and troops". That is a far better description of what each thing does. I think that serfs and a given, and don't need to be explained.

Good ideas, they just need to fit within the bounds. Hmm... I wonder whether the other language versions should also be changed to reflect this.

Lewin wrote:Ok, I just tested it for you. No, there is no reason for the difference. In my opinion, you should make mission 1 be the same as the others, and then add 5 extra spaces to each one. This means that the header is now bang in the middle, and not half way across. It also makes it easier to read, as it's now over the blue water and not the multicoloured land. I tested this with double and single character mission numbers, and it looks fine for both. Do you agree with this?

I'll definitely fix that problem with one less space for mission 1. As for the centering, I think the text looks better when not being completely centered, because sometimes the first sentence doesn't use the whole line which makes the text look somewhat strange.
Still, I will be considering this.

Lewin wrote:Yes, it'd be difficult do to. This should be a low priority task.

Right.

Litude wrote:That's where your wrong! The word gold IS plural. The singular would be a piece of gold or a chest of gold. After all, you would never say "the serf took a gold to the school" would you? And you wouldn't say "I have lots of golds in my school house", you would say "I have lots of gold in my school house". The same rule applies for ALL the others. (iron ore, timber, coal, corn, leather, and so on...) None of these words work with an S on the end and none of them are singular. Do you understand me? So why can't the weapons be too? It sounds strange to say 5 crossbow. I am right about this one, and I am prepared to argue it. :twisted:

I never said gold isn't plural, I said gold ore isn't plural. It's one gold ore and many gold ores. Same thing for the iron ores.

Lewin wrote:Personally I prefer referring to all the serfs. (serfs supply your.... not The serfs) Makes it sound like you have one super serfs that does everything. :wink: Still, what you have written is much better than what I did. I felt the original one didn't explain everything properly.

But the descriptions have to be consistent. All descriptions talk about what "the" citizen does. The problem with what I suggested is that it's most likely too long.

Lewin wrote:Ok, I've tested it.
180 is the one used on the button under options, and must be capitol.
177 is then used on a button once you've clicked on quit once, should be capitol
178 is a button, should be capitol
(Note: These ones are also used for the hover descriptions, but as the button is the most obvious I still say they should be capitol.
165 is only used as the hover text for the back button when your in options, build, statistics, etc. It should be lower case. (it's currently capitol)
Make sense?
This whole case thing is really bugging me. Buttons should defiantly be. Hover descriptions shouldn't be. Major titles should be. Some smaller header/titles could be (e.g. should Construct Road be capitol? I think it should)

Good ideas.

Lewin wrote:I still say no. If you had multiple sentences then things would be different. With only a few words the full stop looks silly.
I've made a few screenshots of hover hints where there is NOT a dot:
Windows file browser
Firefox
Warcraft III. The short hint has no dot, only the detailed description with multiple sentences.
Warcraft III again, same thing in a different case
The Gimp (image editor)
Empire Earth - Main menu
How many hover hints can you find with full stops? I'd like to see the screenshots.

Meh, I'd rather not do changes that affect the texts of the whole game in such a large scale as I'm positive there would be quite a lot of naysayers...

Lewin wrote:Uh.. I think that CD is confusing. People may try putting a music CD in so KaM can play it. Track doesn't necessarily mean CD, it has come to mean other things. I don't like CD player, but that's just my opinion.

Okay, I'll reconsider.

Lewin wrote:Nah... blue prints are the documents of plans, not the pegs in the ground marking where to build stuff. I'm not too happy about this string, and I haven't got a better suggestion.

Okay but I didn't like the remove suggestion at all because it doesn't explain what you can remove with it.

Lewin wrote:Hmm... I never thought of it before, but you're kind of right. You see, I've been playing KaM for ages, and so plough field has become part of my vocabulary. Thinking about it now, it sounds quite odd. Plough fields isn't totally incorrect, (plough can be a noun. e.g. a plough) but it isn't good either. (a plough field could be a field where you grow ploughs) Ploughed field doesn't sound brilliant either. How about we go for a major change: Corn fields. After all, you could grow anything in a ploughed field, but a corn field can only mean one thing...
Winefield isn't technically a word, so change it to wine field.
Yes, plural is wine fields.
So my suggestion for these strings:
Construct Road
Create Corn Field
Create Wine Field
What do you think?
My point was that "Plough field" is 100% correct English and sounds 10x better than create corn field. You see, plough is a verb. When you create a field by using a plough you "plough field", so the original is consistent with the rest of the messages.

Lewin wrote:It can mean either. Still, soldier is better anyway.

Yeah but you train just one soldier with a click at the barracks.

Lewin wrote:I had another idea:
273: Select attack target -> Select target
It's pretty obvious that it's an attack target, so why say so? Target is often a word used in war like situations so I think this would fit nicely.
Similarly:
272: Select target group -> Select group
That one I'm not so sure on. What do you reckon?
I was thinking: It might be necessary to add a new line before these strings that we have removed one line on. Otherwise there is a gap bellow the text. I checked this and I think it looks better with the new line at the start.

Yeah those could be better, need to check the formatting.

Lewin wrote:Yes, if your quoting someone or something. But if you receive a message, the standard way that games use is "Lewin: Hello Litude!" (not quotes) but KaM isn't like that. So just leave it I guess, doesn't really matter anyway.

Yeah but the style of writing used in Knights and Merchants resembles more a book.

Lewin wrote:Another way you could make it less overwhelming is to spread them out a bit more. e.g. The ones added in SR2 come within about 10 seconds of each other. For a beginner there is no way they could read the first message, click build and place the school in that much time. So I suggest you remove the one explaining what the school is for, (replace it with the one that explains how to build) and spread the other out more. (about 20 seconds in between messages would be good)

I will need to do some testing on this. Trying to synchronize it to the speed at which a beginner might do the stuff.

Lewin wrote:Well, if you like it that much then you can leave it. I still prefer it this way though.

Well I'll have to look into that.

Litude wrote:Ok then. I guess it's pretty good. BTW: do you think it sounds better to say "your economy is going well"? (rather than doing well) I'm not quite sure...

I think you usually say that the economy is doing well, but not 100% sure on that. Not too fond of the idea of changing it to going either.

Lewin wrote:Yes they should. After all, that's the standard that windows uses (hover hints are not capitalised) Unless you think we should make KaM different because it is not Windows.
Now all the really obvious mistakes have been fixed I think. I will look out for more things to correct every time I played.

Okay and great!
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Post 13 Aug 2008, 04:58

Litude wrote:Good ideas, they just need to fit within the bounds. Hmm... I wonder whether the other language versions should also be changed to reflect this.

I think that they do fit, after all troops and buildings fits, so these should be ok. (let me know if they're not) I think translating these would be a good idea. Some of these other changes could be done as well, such as CD Player. (if you agree to changing that)

Litude wrote:I'll definitely fix that problem with one less space for mission 1. As for the centering, I think the text looks better when not being completely centered, because sometimes the first sentence doesn't use the whole line which makes the text look somewhat strange.
Still, I will be considering this.

I still think the header should be centred properly. Generally one of the lines goes near to reaching the far edge, so it's quite obvious that that is where the page finishes.

Litude wrote:I never said gold isn't plural, I said gold ore isn't plural. It's one gold ore and many gold ores. Same thing for the iron ores.

Gold ore/iron ore is a bit different, as it is a substance and not a single or plural. Gold ore is not a single word. A gold ore doesn't sound right at all. (I asked my mother about this, and she says that that's defiantly correct) Gold ores isn't correct either. However, gold ore isn't not really a plural either. This is the best way I can explain it: It's kind of like the word water. You don't say a water, or many waters. So it's not plural or singular word, it's different. It needs another word for it to make sense, e.g. a glass of water, some water, 5L of water, etc. It's the same with gold/iron ore. The correct ways to say it would be "a bag of gold ore" or "some gold ore" or "a pile of gold ore"
Gold ores (with an s) would be referring to different types of gold ore, not more than one of the same type. 5 gold ores sound really really bad. 5 pieces of gold ore is the correct way to say it.
I checked all of this with my mother, and she says that I'm right. (so there's a second opinion for you)
I looked this up on Wiktionary, and it describes it quite well. It says that ore can be a mass noun, meaning:
uncountable, uncountable noun, or mass noun ? A noun that cannot be used freely with numbers or the indefinite article, and which therefore takes no plural form. For example, the English noun information is a mass noun: we cannot say that we have *one information, nor that we have *many information (or *many informations). Many languages do not distinguish between countable and uncountable nouns. Antonym: countable, or count noun.

It also says that is can be a countable noun, meaning when you are referring to different types of ore.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia on iron ore under the smelting section:
Iron ore consists of oxygen and iron atoms bonded together into molecules.

See? It's using iron ore as a plural. If you change iron ore to something else (e.g. lets use the noun computer)
Computers consist of lots of microchips.

You couldn't say:
Computer consists of lots of microchips.

That would be referring to a single computer, and looks wrong in this situation.
A similar example of the one with iron ore would be with water (I am showing you this example as water is classified the same as iron ore, and you must use consists, not consist)
Water consists of hydrogen and oxygen molecules.

You might be confused about this because apparently some languages don't have words like this, so maybe Finnish is like like that.

So none of the ware types are singular, only the weapons. Anyway, this discussing is irrelevant, weapons should be plural anyway. (doesn't 5 sword sound wrong to you?)

Litude wrote:But the descriptions have to be consistent. All descriptions talk about what "the" citizen does. The problem with what I suggested is that it's most likely too long.

Ok, keep them consistent, the serf does ..... sounds kind of quaint, and appropriate for KaM.

Litude wrote:Meh, I'd rather not do changes that affect the texts of the whole game in such a large scale as I'm positive there would be quite a lot of naysayers...

Ok then, why have you put dots on lots of the current hints????? (like turn troop left) If you don't want to change this then you should change it either way, leave everything the same. Or, if you going to change it then you should put dots on everything, such as the main menu buttons. Anyway, it's not that many changes to remove the dots, as before you changed them quite a lot of hints didn't have dots. I'm only asking you to change the hover hints, nothing else.
Maybe I'll release my own patch that builds on SR3 and corrects this. (and maybe the singular weapons thing too. I'll call it Native English Patch.

Litude wrote:Okay but I didn't like the remove suggestion at all because it doesn't explain what you can remove with it.

I agree, it needs an explanation. Highlights is ok I guess, so unless we think of something better leave it as that.

Litude wrote:My point was that "Plough field" is 100% correct English and sounds 10x better than create corn field. You see, plough is a verb. When you create a field by using a plough you "plough field", so the original is consistent with the rest of the messages.

Oh, I get you. Yeah, that would be good. I was a bit confused about what you were talking about. Don't forget to change the hover hint as well as the text displayed after you click.

Litude wrote:Yeah but you train just one soldier with a click at the barracks.

Yes, soldier would be a far better word. I was simply pointing out that troop CAN mean a single man, but soldier would be a lot better in this case.

Litude wrote:Yeah but the style of writing used in Knights and Merchants resembles more a book.

Yeah, ok leave it then.

Litude wrote:I will need to do some testing on this. Trying to synchronize it to the speed at which a beginner might do the stuff.

Good idea. Just make sure it's not too slow, or people may get impatient. The message explaining how to train units could be a lot later, as it is for once the school is built.

Litude wrote:Well I'll have to look into that.

Are you making notes of all these things to look into? You must have pages of them!

Litude wrote:I think you usually say that the economy is doing well, but not 100% sure on that. Not too fond of the idea of changing it to going either.

Yes, I think doing is better as well, just wanted to ask your opinion on that.
Lewin.
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Post 13 Aug 2008, 09:46

Lewin wrote:This is the best way I can explain it: It's kind of like the word water. You don't say a water, or many waters.


I always use the word ''yoghurt''. :wink:

Lewin wrote:Maybe I'll release my own patch that builds on SR3 and corrects this. (and maybe the singular weapons thing too. I'll call it Native English Patch.


Lol, I can imagine it.
''Hey all, download Lewin's patch!''
''What does it?''
''It removes dots!''
:P

Well I think too that those dots shouldn't be there (think too that those :/ ). When you write a book, you don't place a dot behind the title!

Litude wrote:Yeah but the style of writing used in Knights and Merchants resembles more a book.


Got ya! ^^
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Post 13 Aug 2008, 12:16

Okay okay... I'll remove the dots. Did some testing and it looks a bit better this way. Just need to hope that there isn't going to be too many naysayers. So if I recall correctly, there isn't a single roll-over hint that is longer than a single sentence so no dots will be present in this hints.
I'll also make those weapons plural. Happy? :wink:

Lewin wrote:Ok then, why have you put dots on lots of the current hints????? (like turn troop left) If you don't want to change this then you should change it either way, leave everything the same. Or, if you going to change it then you should put dots on everything, such as the main menu buttons.

I don't know how closely you followed what I did, but I did not put dots on LOTS of the current hints. I only added them to turn troop right/left because all the other buttons in the soldier menu had these.

Lewin wrote:Anyway, it's not that many changes to remove the dots, as before you changed them quite a lot of hints didn't have dots. I'm only asking you to change the hover hints, nothing else.

So could you please tell me where I added these lots of dots? I'd also like to know where these ended up. :wink:

Lewin wrote:I agree, it needs an explanation. Highlights is ok I guess, so unless we think of something better leave it as that.

Yeah and change building to plural.

Lewin wrote:Good idea. Just make sure it's not too slow, or people may get impatient. The message explaining how to train units could be a lot later, as it is for once the school is built.

Doing my testing I noticed that the first three messages are quite well timed, but the fourth message came ways too early. I tried to time it so that it appears when you have almost finished constructing your school house.

Lewin wrote:Are you making notes of all these things to look into? You must have pages of them!

Well, the thread is just two pages as of now :P.


Anyways, I decided against changing "Road construction" to "Road Construction" because this would practically require me also to capitalize the second word of all buildings, which I'd rather not.
Oh and I also changed all mentions of "Server" to host in places where it referred to the server admin.
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Post 15 Aug 2008, 01:11

Litude wrote:Okay okay... I'll remove the dots. Did some testing and it looks a bit better this way. Just need to hope that there isn't going to be too many naysayers. So if I recall correctly, there isn't a single roll-over hint that is longer than a single sentence so no dots will be present in this hints.
I'll also make those weapons plural. Happy? :wink:

Yup!! I'm happy that someone else has finally joined this thread! You made some good points The Dark Lord, yoghurt is a great example.
I really can't see that these so called naysayers are going to be an issue. Find someone who objects and I'll reconsider.

The Dark Lord wrote:Lol, I can imagine it.
''Hey all, download Lewin's patch!''
''What does it?''
''It removes dots!''

Hehe, yeah, it was a stupid idea... I was just trying to say to Litude: Who's the native English speaker around here? I am not teaching you how to speak Finnish.

Litude wrote:I don't know how closely you followed what I did, but I did not put dots on LOTS of the current hints. I only added them to turn troop right/left because all the other buttons in the soldier menu had these.

Sorry, I didn't really check. I only noticed the left right ones, but I assumed you'd changed some other too, but I was wrong.

Litude wrote:So could you please tell me where I added these lots of dots? I'd also like to know where these ended up. :wink:

See above. Sorry.

Litude wrote:Yeah and change building to plural.

Good idea.

Litude wrote:Doing my testing I noticed that the first three messages are quite well timed, but the fourth message came ways too early. I tried to time it so that it appears when you have almost finished constructing your school house.

I agree, the fourth is way too early.

Litude wrote:Anyways, I decided against changing "Road construction" to "Road Construction" because this would practically require me also to capitalize the second word of all buildings, which I'd rather not.
Oh and I also changed all mentions of "Server" to host in places where it referred to the server admin.

Yeah, good point. I don't quite understand what you mean about server/host but I have a look when beta 4 comes out.
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Post 15 Aug 2008, 05:27

Sentences like "%s has been kicked by the server" and "you are now the server". Don't know, maybe admin would be better?
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Post 25 Aug 2008, 18:00

Okay, I noticed one error in the new messages for The Peasants Rebellion campaign.
[code]I stress once more upon thee, protect thine allied village to the south from thy enemy attacks![/quote]
Once more cannot be used here as this is the very first time you are warned about it, unlike in mission 5 TSK there's no word of warning given here during the briefing. Just removing the "once more" should do the trick, unless you want to reword it?
Chances are, both of the messages might have to be slightly changed depending on whether people think what I've suggested for the mission is a good idea. See the main SR3 thread if you haven't as of yet.

Oh and in case you didn't notice, I added a new message to 14 TPR and posted it in the translations thread, but here it is in case you want to see it and comment:
[code]Our spies report that our enemy hath indeed already discovered our new location and even now prepares an attack against thee. Grab thy trusty sword once more and show no mercy to these ruthless rebels![/quote]
I'm quite happy with it despite the fact that the first attack of the enemy happens quite late, preparing doesn't necessarily suggest that it's going to happen soon. Any take on it?
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Post 29 Aug 2008, 02:31

Hi Litude,
First message would be fine without the "once more", although maybe a little too short. Maybe if we add this bit to the end? Makes it more interesting...
[code]I stress upon thee, protect thine allied village to the south from thy enemy attacks!
Allow them not to fall prey to thy opponent, for we need their support more than ever.[/quote]
Is that all consistent with the story?

PLEASE!! Grab is such an ugly, modern word!! :x Could we please use draw. (that sounds far more like the KaM's style) Or, if for some reason you don't like that then what about take? (sounds slightly better than grab)
How about:
[code]Our spies report that our enemy hath indeed already discovered our new location and even now prepares an attack against thee. Draw thy trusty sword once more and show no mercy to these ruthless rebels![/quote]

This shouldn't affect the translations, because the meaning in both of the messages is still the same.
Happy with that? :wink:
Lewin.
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Post 29 Aug 2008, 15:58

Okay I changed the messages to the ones suggested by you. There's one final message that I could need some help in:
[code]We hath arrived at the final point of defense of the treacherous rebels.
Thou shalt slay all of the rebellious and caddish dwellers here, leaving not a single breathing soul after this glorious battle has come to an end![/quote]
Don't really like the first sentence that much but couldn't come up with any better (don't want to repeat that bastion thing that was said in the briefing). Also is slay a good word of choice? :wink:
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