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New unit brainstorm

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Lewin

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Post 31 Jan 2013, 11:58

Re: New unit brainstorm

I don't like the idea of making iron production slower because that makes the whole game slower/longer, and people already complain that it takes too long. If swordfighters are overused I think we can find another solution. Knights are the only unit which is stronger than swordfighters, they have an extra lifepoint which is a considerable advantage. If somebody rushes at you with swordfighters and militia, knights (plus supporting units) would be a good defence since their only weakness is pikemen/lance carriers. Perhaps the corn efficiency fixes will make knights faster/easier to produce. I feel like knights and scouts are hard to produce for most people, and even highly skilled players don't make large numbers of them.
Just to throw a random idea out there, we could consider speeding up the stables production rate (corn cost per horse unchanged)
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pawel95

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Post 31 Jan 2013, 12:05

Re: New unit brainstorm

Lewin wrote: If somebody rushes at you with swordfighters and militia, knights (plus supporting units) would be a good defence since their only weakness is pikemen/lance carriers.


Indeed i have defended many rushes with e.g Axefighters+Xbows and Knights, so it is really good combination with knights. However when the "rushes" has like only 8-12 pikes and uses them perfectly, the defender hasnt a chance than without Swordmen! I think this is the bigger problem.

On the other side, i would like to test this thing in some new Test RC,because with one stable and leather army you can max. make 10-14 horses (Without trading) i think. When you also make food(bread) than you wil have like the half of it i think.
So this would be a possible feature,to balance it better than:
Lewin wrote:
Just to throw a random idea out there, we could consider speeding up the stables production rate (corn cost per horse unchanged)


Lewin,what do you think in general about giving the Warriors +1 defense in comparision to a barbar?
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Jeronimo

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Knight

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Post 31 Jan 2013, 20:16

Re: New unit brainstorm

Lewin wrote:I don't like the idea of making iron production slower because that makes the whole game slower/longer, and people already complain that it takes too long. If swordfighters are overused I think we can find another solution.

Is not about swordfighters, is about mass iron winning the game in first minutes after PT.
If you make Stables work faster, won't resolve anything, since the same Iron rush will then be focused in Xbowmen + pikemen (instead of swords/knights).

I said games won't be any slower... but people may go leather production (normal speed), while adds Iron units as elite backup.
Otherwise making main army full Iron + militias owns every other combo (specially in semi-open maps), only ways to stop massive rush like this are very narrow passages and teamworked defense or copying same strategy which derives to lack of base-builds.

Go mass iron for a quick victory, no lategame. 80% replays I saw follow same course.
Can't be that hard to add 10 sec extra resting time for each Iron stage, it's worth testing.

Or lets see what happens with the upcoming better farms... if that makes all corn houses produce more by when PT ends.
KaM Skill Level: Jeronimo
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Guest

Post 01 Feb 2013, 14:21

Re: New unit brainstorm

The funny thing is we had possibility to make iron rush in every single version of KaM Remake. But it was never so danger like it is now (old iron army rush was most of time smth like 60-70 pikes after PT60 - It was NightFury who used it first i think). That tactic was not so popular anyway. Now we have situation when we can create at least 35 sworfighters. Thats true that in most of games iron rush will won for you(60 percent imo not 80) but most of the time its because they have swordsfighters and big spam of militia(Its very hard to win game with no mass militia even if you have mass iron). Matt was first player who started this crazy rushes (100-120 soldiers after PT60) and now we have situation where almost everyone is using it. Anyway if you want to make it efective you need to concentrate on iron production fast. That means most of the time you will have problems in late game. I realy like this kind of games beacause you never know what will happend. Personaly I dont like games where you can just camp and be sure that no one can kill you after PT60. Rush is not key to victory - It gives advantage only after PT. We had many games where rush failed and players with big bases like Revo or Mully totaly owned the game. Unfortunely no one puted that replay on forum or TS. Anyway if you are only watching replays uploaded in TS you shouldt talk so many about balance things imo :P
Most of time replays uploaded on TS are bad example (team balance is bad, loc balance is bad, someone f****d game)
I am plaing many games in test release and I fill like we are very close like we were never before to balance this game.
Sorry for bad english guys :| I tried my best ....
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Romek

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Post 01 Feb 2013, 14:22

Re: New unit brainstorm

I posted it :)
Look at this bad english !
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dicsoupcan

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Post 01 Feb 2013, 16:04

Re: New unit brainstorm

as far as i experience there is no lategame anymore though, max 15 mins after pt and the battle is won or lost.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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pawel95

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Post 01 Feb 2013, 16:08

Re: New unit brainstorm

dicsoupcan wrote:as far as i experience there is no lategame anymore though, max 15 mins after pt and the battle is won or lost.


Well yeah and exactly this is so extremly bad at KaM MP games (actualy) :P In some other strategy games you play like 40-60 min(like PT in kam) and than you are playing 1-2(3) hours a game (4vs4) like in The Settlers IV for example. So at this point KaM is also little bit boring, because you are playing 1 hour and than sometimes is everything out after 5-10 minutes :-(
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Lewin

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Post 02 Feb 2013, 13:10

Re: New unit brainstorm

pawel95 wrote:
dicsoupcan wrote:as far as i experience there is no lategame anymore though, max 15 mins after pt and the battle is won or lost.


Well yeah and exactly this is so extremly bad at KaM MP games (actualy) :P In some other strategy games you play like 40-60 min(like PT in kam) and than you are playing 1-2(3) hours a game (4vs4) like in The Settlers IV for example. So at this point KaM is also little bit boring, because you are playing 1 hour and than sometimes is everything out after 5-10 minutes :-(

I just wanted to say that's not what we are aiming for, we want the game to be able too go for longer as well. There's nothing wrong with a quick game sometimes, but I personally prefer longer games and the balance should not be such that most games end 10 minutes after PT. Any suggestions for why this is happening and what we can do to address it?
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dicsoupcan

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Post 02 Feb 2013, 13:29

Re: New unit brainstorm

Lewin wrote:
pawel95 wrote:
dicsoupcan wrote:as far as i experience there is no lategame anymore though, max 15 mins after pt and the battle is won or lost.


Well yeah and exactly this is so extremly bad at KaM MP games (actualy) :P In some other strategy games you play like 40-60 min(like PT in kam) and than you are playing 1-2(3) hours a game (4vs4) like in The Settlers IV for example. So at this point KaM is also little bit boring, because you are playing 1 hour and than sometimes is everything out after 5-10 minutes :-(

I just wanted to say that's not what we are aiming for, we want the game to be able too go for longer as well. There's nothing wrong with a quick game sometimes, but I personally prefer longer games and the balance should not be such that most games end 10 minutes after PT. Any suggestions for why this is happening and what we can do to address it?


It is mostly because of the rush, but i believe 1,5 and (maybe) 3x speeds were being implemented wich should reduce pt, and thus getting a faster game. I think that will compensate for it.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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pawel95

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Post 02 Feb 2013, 15:23

Re: New unit brainstorm

Well I´m also sometimes for a quick game, but too quick isnt funny,specially when you are loosing :P
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Da Revolution

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Post 03 Feb 2013, 13:37

Re: New unit brainstorm

Lewin wrote:I just wanted to say that's not what we are aiming for, we want the game to be able too go for longer as well. There's nothing wrong with a quick game sometimes, but I personally prefer longer games and the balance should not be such that most games end 10 minutes after PT. Any suggestions for why this is happening and what we can do to address it?


Short games aren't a problem as those are balanced. Long games can get boring because some people camp all the time. So a short game can have more action than a long game.

This problem can be caused by many things:
- Builder rush (this way people with less troops can easily get through lots of towers)
- Maps can be the cause as well (no they shouldn't be changed). Open maps give the opportunity to rush easily to the enemy.
- People who build a regular base (for example 10 farms and 5-6 pigfarms) don't have a chance when people like matt rush. (no rush isn't too powerful, but the ways to stop aren't always that easy)
- Unbalanced teams, impossible to fix.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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pawel95

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Post 03 Feb 2013, 13:44

Re: New unit brainstorm

Da Revolution wrote:This problem can be caused by many things:
- Builder rush (this way people with less troops can easily get through lots of towers)
- Maps can be the cause as well (no they shouldn't be changed). Open maps give the opportunity to rush easily to the enemy.
- People who build a regular base (for example 10 farms and 5-6 pigfarms) don't have a chance when people like matt rush. (no rush isn't too powerful, but the ways to stop aren't always that easy)
- Unbalanced teams, impossible to fix.


I agree on all points what you have written down Revo. So i think that it is a good way that lewin and krom want to forbid builder rushings :-)
Like you have said unbalanced teams arent fixable(only with something like an online system and some statistics of each player: WON/LOST % or sth like that. LOL)

However I wanna say, (i know that now many critics will anser :P ) maybe testing really some longer PT. No, I´m not joking. Like 95% of the Games are with 1:00 PT. So a rusher has the best conditions and I like your example with 6 pigfarms and 10-12 farms.
I think when you would play like with 1:30 PT the "classic" player will have much more chances to win the game as a normal rusher has, won´t he? Also the problem I have mentioned that corn needs longer "first" time than iron,but when your corn production is running after 1,5 hours your leather production will be much faster than your "milita" or iron production i think.


Before you answer just think about it. I know that 1:00 PT is good and classical, but I also player lots of games, in which the enemy just hadn´t finished towers. With like +5/10 minutes this problem maybe wouldn´t appear.


Pawel95
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BloodTree

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Post 05 Feb 2013, 00:25

Re: New unit brainstorm

If you make large army of xbow + any melee unit its easy to beat swordsmen coz they can`t hit all at same time. It`s best to not make same kind unit`s only.
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ChrisEggII

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Sword Fighter

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Post 05 Feb 2013, 09:46

Re: New unit brainstorm

Did you play in test relase? In new version small group of horses can destroy big army of crossbows.
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BloodTree

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Post 05 Feb 2013, 11:53

Re: New unit brainstorm

ChrisEggII wrote:Did you play in test relase? In new version small group of horses can destroy big army of crossbows.


yes, at one of my last replays you can see it how it works.
I can`t say that i like it. For melee units big - that if they get attacked by even one unit they all want kill it, Deadly part if someone split them to many group then it`s much harder. Put your xbow near towers and you never have to fear swords. If someone build swordsman rush i am sure that he will want attack you not defend himself.
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