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New unit brainstorm

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The Dark Lord

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 16:25

Re: New unit brainstorm

Ah, now we're talking.

First of all I'd like to see a reply on this question:
Now, if they are indeed too strong, wouldn't it be enough to make their attack strength a little lower, something like George_Stain suggested?
And with this, I really mean 'a little', so that they will still be useful but don't dominate the battlefield as badly as they do now?

I agree with Krom that adding a new unit will only make things more complicated.

Isn't it fair that the most expensive unit is the strongest? Do you want to add a cheap unit to counter the strongest? And if people mass sword fighters, have you ever tried to 'mass' knights? Obviously you won't need as many knights as the enemy has sword fighters. Of course it is much harder to make a lot of knights, but a total of 5 knights in a whole game? Then you mustn't even be trying to counter a mass sword fighter strategy. Knights eat militia, so combined with archers/crossbowmen and some militia of your own it should be easy (in combination with some watchtowers maybe, if you do not want to rush yourself).

This is what sado wrote on the first page:
The barbarian would be a really interesting unit, because it has a better attack then axemen or swordsmen, but on the other hand it doesn't have the defence boost against ranged units (which only shielded units have). So, it might become good for a countering melee-only army, but will not that overpowered because ranged units kill them more easily. Rock, paper, scissors.
So how does this help to balance things? It's like a supermilitia that dies too quickly (practically what the sword fighter used to be, but then with higher attack). People will find new army combinations that are imbalanced and we will have to add another unit. Or maybe even three, or wait, ten. This unit will make archers and crossbowmen even more popular if you ask me.

There's always something wrong, people are always looking for 'new dimensions'... Maybe you just play too much and maybe that's the reason it gets boring for you which results in a wish for something new. And it has a 'I restore balance'-cloak as disguise.
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 16:35

Re: New unit brainstorm

Ah, now we're talking.

First of all I'd like to see a reply on this question:
Now, if they are indeed too strong, wouldn't it be enough to make their attack strength a little lower, something like George_Stain suggested?
And with this, I really mean 'a little', so that they will still be useful but don't dominate the battlefield as badly as they do now?


Isn't it fair that the most expensive unit is the strongest? Do you want to add a cheap unit to counter the strongest?
This is what sado wrote on the first page:
But isnt it the case already? Knight < Pike
Warrior> Sword fighter
You just proved my theory to be right if anything else.

I have already done 40 knights before peace time, it sacrificed all my other troops, so basically thats all i had right after pt, and it was done through a crazy abuse of market, and it wasnt so effective as even when we won the first blow, the enemy very quickyl switched to pike which totally countered my knights.
after peace time production sucks as I am producing even more knights but at a very slow rate, and basically thats all im producing.
But that is not the problem here..

Knight, the most expensive unit has a very strong counter, Why shouldnt the sword fighter have one too?
Pike is cheaper than a knight and yet is a very effective counter, So IMO adding another unit shouldnt be a problem at all.
The barbarian would be a really interesting unit, because it has a better attack then axemen or swordsmen, but on the other hand it doesn't have the defence boost against ranged units (which only shielded units have). So, it might become good for a countering melee-only army, but will not that overpowered because ranged units kill them more easily. Rock, paper, scissors.
So how does this help to balance things? It's like a supermilitia that dies too quickly (practically what the sword fighter used to be, but then with higher attack). People will find new army combinations that are imbalanced and we will have to add another unit. Or maybe even three, or wait, ten. This unit will make archers and crossbowmen even more popular if you ask me.

There's always something wrong, people are always looking for 'new dimensions'... Maybe you just play too much and maybe that's the reason it gets boring for you which results in a wish for something new. And it has a 'I restore balance'-cloak as disguise.
No its not, there is logic behind it dying faster by bowmen than xbow, read my post once again, and if you would like me to explain as to why im proposing this from a different prespective , I can explain it to you in detail.
Last edited by EDMatt on 13 Sep 2021, 13:57, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merged two seperate posts
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dicsoupcan

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 16:55

Re: New unit brainstorm

Ah, now we're talking.

First of all I'd like to see a reply on this question:
Now, if they are indeed too strong, wouldn't it be enough to make their attack strength a little lower, something like George_Stain suggested?
And with this, I really mean 'a little', so that they will still be useful but don't dominate the battlefield as badly as they do now?

I agree with Krom that adding a new unit will only make things more complicated.

Isn't it fair that the most expensive unit is the strongest? Do you want to add a cheap unit to counter the strongest? And if people mass sword fighters, have you ever tried to 'mass' knights? Obviously you won't need as many knights as the enemy has sword fighters. Of course it is much harder to make a lot of knights, but a total of 5 knights in a whole game? Then you mustn't even be trying to counter a mass sword fighter strategy. Knights eat militia, so combined with archers/crossbowmen and some militia of your own it should be easy (in combination with some watchtowers maybe, if you do not want to rush yourself).

This is what sado wrote on the first page:
The barbarian would be a really interesting unit, because it has a better attack then axemen or swordsmen, but on the other hand it doesn't have the defence boost against ranged units (which only shielded units have). So, it might become good for a countering melee-only army, but will not that overpowered because ranged units kill them more easily. Rock, paper, scissors.
So how does this help to balance things? It's like a supermilitia that dies too quickly (practically what the sword fighter used to be, but then with higher attack). People will find new army combinations that are imbalanced and we will have to add another unit. Or maybe even three, or wait, ten. This unit will make archers and crossbowmen even more popular if you ask me.

There's always something wrong, people are always looking for 'new dimensions'... Maybe you just play too much and maybe that's the reason it gets boring for you which results in a wish for something new. And it has a 'I restore balance'-cloak as disguise.
so basically you say that the pikemen should be more expensive? since it is a cheap unit that counters the strongest unit?
and to mass knights you need a lot of stables and grain, it will not be effective since you are better off producing axefighters next to swordfighters. and sure if i make mass axefighters a few bowmen and mass xbows i am not going to mass knights, the game is over before you can get even 8 horses the normal way. mounted units main purpose for my army composition is harrassing and picking of enemy ranged or weaker units. you just cannot mass mounted units, and even if you do it is easy to counter it because of a cheap unit, the pikeman or lanser.

the barbarian/warrior shold not be a supermilitia that dies fast, if it is melee only they do not die fast since they kill other units easily, but the key is ranged units wich should be able to take them out more easy like a non shielded axefighter.

this is what i think is interesting: People will find new army combinations that are imbalanced and we will have to add another unit. Or maybe even three, or wait, ten. This unit will make archers and crossbowmen even more popular if you ask me.

So basically there shall never be a balance in your opinion. And the way it is now everyone is forced to use swordfighters or else they cannot keep up. and although i know leather should not be more powerfull then iron, it is hardly being used because you will have the disadvantage. Iron is the only way to go at the moment, and i personally think that just iron rush alone is not really a variety, just like in early releases militia + xbows was the only strategy.
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Krom

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 17:05

Re: New unit brainstorm

I agree with TDL.
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 17:13

Re: New unit brainstorm

I agree with TDL.
What argument do you agree with?
specifically point it out, and please, do be specific, and lets hope its not the part where he vaguely states that its "going to be complicated".
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Krom

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 17:24

Re: New unit brainstorm

You didn't answered my questions, why should I answer yours? ))

Seriously, you read my points and you see that they are very similar to those TDL wrote.

I don't feel like participating in this endless discussion.
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 17:26

Re: New unit brainstorm

You didn't answered my questions, why should I answer yours? ))

Seriously, you read my points and you see that they are very similar to those TDL wrote.

I don't feel like participating in this endless discussion.
What would you like me to answer for you?
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Krom

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:01

Re: New unit brainstorm

What was your original idea when you started this topic? Restore balance or draw something? Why did you cancelled Arab storehouse?
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:10

Re: New unit brainstorm

What was your original idea when you started this topic?
My original idea was to draw a new unit, since there was/is space for one as we found after testing the beta release.
Restore balance or draw something?
I originally opened this topic to draw something that will fill in the missing gap, but after a long discussion over teamspeak with number of people that have tested the beta with me, they convinced me that using the excisting warrior/barbarian sprites will be a better and easier solution.
Why did you cancelled Arab storehouse?
I cancelled it because my hard disc failed, I lost all the files which contained a huge overall improvement and proggress and sketches of other buildings, it wasnt untill recently that I replaced it with a new one.
So i was forced to use a crappy laptop that lagged the shit out of the game, and just browsing the forum was ahuge pain.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:27

Re: New unit brainstorm

But isnt it the case already? Knight < Pike
Warrior> Sword fighter
You just proved my theory to be right if anything else.

I have already done 40 knights before peace time, it sacrificed all my other troops, so basically thats all i had right after pt, and it was done through a crazy abuse of market, and it wasnt so effective as even when we won the first blow, the enemy very quickyl switched to pike which totally countered my knights.
after peace time production sucks as I am producing even more knights but at a very slow rate, and basically thats all im producing.
But that is not the problem here..

Knight, the most expensive unit has a very strong counter, Why shouldnt the sword fighter have one too?
Pike is cheaper than a knight and yet is a very effective counter, So IMO adding another unit shouldnt be a problem at all.
Sword fighter already has a strong counter as we all know (knight). Making 40 knights only is a bad idea. Making only sword fighters is also a bad idea. Why? Because they can be countered. But knights aren't only a counter to sword fighters, you can scout with them as well, raid villages faster, flank ranged units or armies, all this thanks to their speed. A unit that dies as easily as a lance carrier won't make much difference against sword fighters if there are ranged units around. And how will it have an attack powerful enough to kill sword fighters in such a rate that they are 'a counter', but not so powerful that they slaughter knights as well?
No its not, there is logic behind it dying faster by bowmen than xbow, read my post once again, and if you would like me to explain as to why im proposing this from a different prespective , I can explain it to you in detail.
I wasn't referring to a difference between crossbowmen and archers, I was just saying that this unit will die quickly by ranged units.
so basically you say that the pikemen should be more expensive? since it is a cheap unit that counters the strongest unit?
No, that's not what I said. As I stated above, the knight has many other functionalities why I consider it 'the strongest unit'.
and to mass knights you need a lot of stables and grain, it will not be effective since you are better off producing axefighters next to swordfighters. and sure if i make mass axefighters a few bowmen and mass xbows i am not going to mass knights, the game is over before you can get even 8 horses the normal way. mounted units main purpose for my army composition is harrassing and picking of enemy ranged or weaker units. you just cannot mass mounted units, and even if you do it is easy to counter it because of a cheap unit, the pikeman or lanser.
I've seen Mully having >15 horses with one stable. Massing crossbowmen doesn't work, massing pikemen doesn't work, massing knights doesn't work, massing lance carriers doesn't work, massing axe fighters doesn't work, massing archers doesn't work, massing sword fighters doesn't work either, and I highly doubt that massing militia would work. One unit type won't bring you victory in an equal match, because an army consisting of one unit type can be countered most easily. If you have knights and your enemy has pikemen, your knights can still be useful because they can flank archers and crossbowmen. But yea, if you only have knights, that won't work obviously.
So basically there shall never be a balance in your opinion. And the way it is now everyone is forced to use swordfighters or else they cannot keep up. and although i know leather should not be more powerfull then iron, it is hardly being used because you will have the disadvantage. Iron is the only way to go at the moment, and i personally think that just iron rush alone is not really a variety, just like in early releases militia + xbows was the only strategy
Once again, no, that's not what I said. What I wanted to say is that I don't think adding a new unit will bring balance. It might seem so, but eventually it will cause new problems.
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dicsoupcan

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:38

Re: New unit brainstorm

I've seen Mully having >15 horses with one stable. Massing crossbowmen doesn't work, massing pikemen doesn't work, massing knights doesn't work, massing lance carriers doesn't work, massing axe fighters doesn't work, massing archers doesn't work, massing sword fighters doesn't work either, and I highly doubt that massing militia would work. One unit type won't bring you victory in an equal match, because an army consisting of one unit type can be countered most easily. If you have knights and your enemy has pikemen, your knights can still be useful because they can flank archers and crossbowmen. But yea, if you only have knights, that won't work obviously.
Massing swords does work, because it is it accompanied by 60-90 militia, there is no way any other unit can be used to counter this, and there are no other units you can mass to counterrush this. you can have a mix of axefighters pikes crossbowmen and a few knights but that has no chance against the mass swords and militia because swords -> alle melee except for the few knights they outnumber by far. and the ranged units also do not help much against it, especially because you get heavily uotnumbered by the militia who will most likely harras your crossbowmen. we tried a variety of things and the only way to defend is also massing swords, or have stupid tactics like blocking entrnaces with markets so they basically function like a wall, wich as i recall was not kam style.
Last edited by dicsoupcan on 28 Jan 2013, 18:42, edited 3 times in total.
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:40

Re: New unit brainstorm


Sword fighter already has a strong counter as we all know (knight). Making 40 knights only is a bad idea.
Making 40 knights is a bad idea because the guy making 40 swords men can have simultaniusly 80 militia, while when youre making knights, you cannot pull off such a feat.

I've seen Mully having >15 horses with one stable. Massing crossbowmen doesn't work, massing pikemen doesn't work, massing knights doesn't work, massing lance carriers doesn't work, massing axe fighters doesn't work, massing archers doesn't work, massing sword fighters doesn't work either, and I highly doubt that massing militia would work. One unit type won't bring you victory in an equal match, because an army consisting of one unit type can be countered most easily. If you have knights and your enemy has pikemen, your knights can still be useful because they can flank archers and crossbowmen. But yea, if you only have knights, that won't work obviously.
Maybe you should ask Mully what he thinks about this?
Since he stopped making horses lately when he knows he is facing a rush.

also let me just stick this one in, I havent lost a 1v1 or a 2v2 game with militia and sword fighters only yet, I have only lost when someone counter it by the same stuff.
Last edited by EDMatt on 28 Jan 2013, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
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The Dark Lord

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:43

Re: New unit brainstorm

That's not what I meant with massing sword fighters, you're now speaking of a combination of units. And if I understand you correctly, we're back to 'rush is imba'? I thought people had agreed that it was possible to counter rush. I think militia + crossbowmen + knight will work fine by the way, maybe with some towers.

But hey, I have a brilliant idea, let's reduce the attack of the sword fighter just a tiny bit so it's less 'op'.
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EDMatt

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:46

Re: New unit brainstorm

That's not what I meant with massing sword fighters, you're now speaking of a combination of units. And if I understand you correctly, we're back to 'rush is imba'? I thought people had agreed that it was possible to counter rush. I think militia + crossbowmen + knight will work fine by the way, maybe with some towers.

But hey, I have a brilliant idea, let's reduce the attack of the sword fighter just a tiny bit so it's less 'op'.
The point of all of this is that sword fighters have no HARD counter, EVERY other unit has one, sword fighters dont! (xbow/bow is a universal unit).
You keep denying it but the fact is that every unit has a rather cheap counter, and sword fighters dont..
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dicsoupcan

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 18:48

Re: New unit brainstorm

That's not what I meant with massing sword fighters, you're now speaking of a combination of units. And if I understand you correctly, we're back to 'rush is imba'? I thought people had agreed that it was possible to counter rush. I think militia + crossbowmen + knight will work fine by the way, maybe with some towers.

But hey, I have a brilliant idea, let's reduce the attack of the sword fighter just a tiny bit so it's less 'op'.
but the main core are the swordfighters, you can try the same with pikemen, and you will still lose,nd besides that i do not really see that it is a combination since the militia is mostly cannon fodder anyway.

if you speak purely about 1 vs 1 unit then swordfighter > all except knight, but you cannot mass a knight wich gives preference over a swordfighter.
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