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Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

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cmowla

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Post 22 Jan 2015, 22:02

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@Vatrix,
I understand the changes you made for other missions, but I don't see why you added extra troops in TSK 4. Although this doesn't affect the game play for the casual player, it does change the game for anyone who is used to at least taking out the first village with his/her initial army. When I played TSK 4 in r4179 (when I first discovered the remake) in 2013, I realized that the AI didn't attack me much and the AI's army didn't grow as time progressed. Now that you have created troop-producing villages, why have the extra troops at the start?
Well, at least you agree it's strange? They are Barbarians. All the pre placed enemies are Leather. They have full Leather city but for some reason they have Iron Building that start to make Iron Troops. (if at least they made Warriors instead of full civilized Knights and Pikeman....)
The original game was like this (which you might know). I see two different justifications for this.
  • [1] Because Barbs can't be created, and they are a very strong troop, the north village produces iron troops to replace Barbs which are lost from the human player luring them out and killing them. It maintains the mission's intensity.
    [2] Perhaps a more "beginners" point of view, since the village started with leather (just as the human player does in this mission) it only improves itself as time goes on to make them feel like a more dynamic opponent.
Also, I agree that TSK 8 is a particularly hard mission to beat amongst all of the missions. Personally, I rate the hardest building and fighting TSK missions (first being hardest) as the following (where missions with the same difficulty are listed together):
TSK 11
TSK 8
TSK 14
TSK 7, TSK 15
TSK 12
TSK 20
TSK 9
TSK 4
TSK 5
TSK 16
TSK 18
TSK 1
TSK 2

However, since I now know how to beat all missions quickly with my initial army, the only missions I still consider to be difficult are TSK 8 and TSK 11. The rest are VERY easy. The only reason why TSK 11 is difficult in this circumstance is because you're not given mounted troops, but the AI is. (If you were even given a single scout, the mission would become easy.) The only reason why TSK 8 is difficult is obviously because you are given a small leather army but are forced to fight against A LOT of barbs.

If you haven't seen my r5503 replays on how to beat TSK 8 and TSK 11 in about 30 minutes each, I encourage you to download r5503 and watch them. The replays are in this post. (Clearly I have many other TSK replays in that post in which you might be interested to see.)
Oh, and in Mission 14 as I said, the Defense Position range ****s things up. Because when the Green attacks, they start to fight close to his base, if you engage there with your allied village, their defensive soldiers start to come too. I had to ignore them and let them kill my allied soldiers and they retreated to their base. In the next attacks, I had to always agroo them with a Archer and bring them very far from their defensive positions to kill them.
You can use this to your advantage, if you play KaM "efficiently". If you have not seen it yet, see my 9 minute and 58 second replay of TSK 20 in r6720. (The link to it is in my signature.) (In fact, you can kill all troops in TSK 14 with your given 6 scout--I'm not speaking of starvation at all--and finish the mission in around 35 minutes!)

Lastly, it's refreshing to see a passionate single player gamer in these parts! :)
Invasion won: with 0 losses and without save reloads|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Border of Life Co-op Won in 1h33m55s|The Official KaM Speedrun Page
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Everstill

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Post 23 Jan 2015, 18:34

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

The original game was like this (which you might know). I see two different justifications for this.
[1] Because Barbs can't be created, and they are a very strong troop, the north village produces iron troops to replace Barbs which are lost from the human player luring them out and killing them. It maintains the mission's intensity.
[2] Perhaps a more "beginners" point of view, since the village started with leather (just as the human player does in this mission) it only improves itself as time goes on to make them feel like a more dynamic opponent.
Yes, it is, and I always found it odd. And the two justifications are not very good. Because:

[1] They could simple create a modified version of the Barracks where it was enabled to the AI to train Barbarians. A lot of RTS have special Building and Units for AI-only to use. This is not a thing to force them to use Iron.

[2] They could simple train more troops or simple train Barbarian troops. If they train 1 Iron unit every 60 seconds, make them train 2 leather every 30 seconds. Or make them simple train lots of Barbarians because they are as strong as Iron troops. I think it was just a oversight in the enemy consistency. And if Vatrix can make the enemy Train more Barbarians to replace his ranks instead of Iron, I really vote Yes for it instead of 'staying with the original'. The Remake is suposed to make things better.
Also, I agree that TSK 8 is a particularly hard mission to beat amongst all of the missions. Personally, I rate the hardest building and fighting TSK missions (first being hardest) as the following (where missions with the same difficulty are listed together):
TSK 11
TSK 8
TSK 14
TSK 7, TSK 15
TSK 12
TSK 20
TSK 9
TSK 4
TSK 5
TSK 16
TSK 18
TSK 1
TSK 2
By far the Mission 8 is the hardest for me and the one I need more restart and Save and Load. Missions 11 (because of how big the enemy attack is), 14 (fucking big army early game) and 12 (big army again) are Hard too. I really don't know why in the original they made a early mission like mission 8 so Hard compared to all others.
However, since I now know how to beat all missions quickly with my initial army, the only missions I still consider to be difficult are TSK 8 and TSK 11. The rest are VERY easy. The only reason why TSK 11 is difficult in this circumstance is because you're not given mounted troops, but the AI is. (If you were even given a single scout, the mission would become easy.) The only reason why TSK 8 is difficult is obviously because you are given a small leather army but are forced to fight against A LOT of barbs.

If you haven't seen my r5503 replays on how to beat TSK 8 and TSK 11 in about 30 minutes each, I encourage you to download r5503 and watch them. The replays are in this post. (Clearly I have many other TSK replays in that post in which you might be interested to see.)

You can use this to your advantage, if you play KaM "efficiently". If you have not seen it yet, see my 9 minute and 58 second replay of TSK 20 in r6720. (The link to it is in my signature.) (In fact, you can kill all troops in TSK 14 with your given 6 scout--I'm not speaking of starvation at all--and finish the mission in around 35 minutes!)
I have watched your Mission 20 replay where you win in 9 minutes and you do everything I don't like to do in Singleplayer :/

You simple treat the enemies like robots and abuse of their stupidity and the Combat Mechanics, I have big problems in Mission 8 for example because I don't abuse the Tower Foundation to fuck the enemy movement, otherwise it would be a easy mission too. Like I said I want to win because i'm smarter not because the enemy is dumb. I try to see the enemy as a living army and the max I do is to agroo the defending enemies to leave the base and come to my lines. (which I see as valid, because the enemy cannot let me just kill them one by one with archers and they will underestimate my army "we have big numbers boys, let's kill them!").

One day we will have a very good AI that kill the tower fundations and will not follow you endless because they have a Threat Map to alocate his troops where it need the most based on the invading army. And of course not let single scouts ravage their building while they have a big army stoped in front of the base. In fact we need a Machine Learning AI for Defense and Attack.

Thanks for your tips but I will continue with the illusion that the enemy AI is smart and will not abuse them, I think it's more fun ;)
Lastly, it's refreshing to see a passionate single player gamer in these parts! :)
Single player FTW! I don't know why everyone turned into multiplayer :(

And a Question, what Campaign can I play right now that is not broken like TPR that Vatrix said?
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Vatrix

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Post 23 Jan 2015, 19:01

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@Everstill
I like your point of view, I also like to play the way you're playing, it's just more fun :) (no offence cmowla, you know I don't have anything against you, you helped me a lot!)
What Campaign can I play right now that is not broken like TPR that Vatrix said?
On Foreign Lands and An Empire Destroyed, sadly Federation of Neryn have mission 6 broken I think.
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Post 23 Jan 2015, 20:37

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

I have watched your Mission 20 replay where you win in 9 minutes and you do everything I don't like to do in Singleplayer :/
Oh, so you knew every tactic I used, eh. Hmm didn't seem like you did since you specifically said that this AI is smarter than the old AI, but I just proved to you that they can be interpreted as being "dumber". :rolleyes:

Think of it this way. If the AI was actually smart like you want them to be, you would have no chance with any of the missions because you are always outnumbered and outgunned, period. So I don't know why you're against my type of play when my type of play is in fact the optimal way to play this game for what it is. All you want to do is "mildly abuse", but you're still "abusing", so don't act like you're not. :wink:

As another example, we (humans) are like the hare and the AI is like the tortoise when it comes to IQ. We are both racing each other. You (and others like you) who play KaM without running at full speed (when you actually know how to run) are like the hare standing in front of the tortoise walking backwards. You want to maintain the lead, but you don't want to leave your opponent in the dust because "it's not as fun as a tease".

Clearly what you want is a challenge. A map that, no matter how hard you try to abuse the AI, they can still kill you effortlessly. With this being the case, I'm not sure why Vatrix didn't mention his "Two Sides" (building and fighting map) in r6720. In addition, I'd recommend "Invasion" (fighting map). If you do decide to play these single maps (Two Sides should take about 5-6 hours, without reloading saves and Invasion should take an hour and a half without reloading saves), note that in "Two Sides", you have to use the market to get gold and iron weapons. (The coal, gold, and iron mines are there, but you cannot process their ore.) In addition, the stone mountain at the top of the map is not mine-able (so you will probably have to trade for stone later in the game).

That is, I challenge you to beat these two maps without reloading saves. No time limit. Being able to beat these two maps (especially invasion) without reloading saves will prove to you that playing KaM with all of your heart and soul in the campaigns is not bad after all because you can actually be always ready to beat a real challenge. :wink:

In addition, you can start trying to beat the campaigns as fast as possible or without losing any units like I have. That is a different type of challenge in of itself (and it's good training for efficiency for thinking ahead and reacting quickly).

Building a powerful city and actually having to TRY to survive is a beautiful thing--if and only if it's absolutely necessary--, but when you limit yourself/put weights on your potential for the purpose of being entertained, you will not be able to fight a real challenge. I've seen a pattern on this site over and over. Players claim a map is unbeatable, and I beat it. I used to be like everyone else, where I limited myself to playing in a way that's fun, but that worked against me when I wanted my skills to be developed.

Therefore, in conclusion, I believe those who do not want to limit themselves and who do not want to abuse the AI started playing multiplayer for this very reason. The reason why I stayed in single player as of this moment is because when I wanted to play multiplayer when I first started playing this game, my computer and internet was too slow, and the remake did not exist until about a decade later. I've become so use to single player that it's really hard for me to picture how this game has any meaning in multiplayer (although my perspective is slowly changing). The reason now why I haven't played multiplayer is because I'm trying to teach truths behind this game and to show other humans how to view the AI correctly. Once I'm finished writing quick-win walkthroughs for the original campaigns, I might in fact start multiplayer myself.
Invasion won: with 0 losses and without save reloads|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Border of Life Co-op Won in 1h33m55s|The Official KaM Speedrun Page
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Swiss Nisi

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 05:10

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

This is by no means an offence to both of you guys (cmowla and everstill) but those are your personal thoughts about KaM.
You could debate a whole day about it and you'd still getting nowhere.

What I love most about KaM is the building your city part. I spend more time in building a big city then in fighting or winning the mission as fast as possible. That's my having fun or my challenge to myself ;) Which is also why I don't play multiplayer or rather why i'm not interested to play it.

What I'm trying to say is: Play the game how you like to play it and don't force your own set challenges upon others or critisize their way of playing.
I did enjoy watching your replays, for example, TSK Mission 20 but I'd never do it like that (mentioned above why^^ )

btw btT?

We're suposed to talk about Campaign Fixes :D
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cmowla

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 06:44

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

What I'm trying to say is: Play the game how you like to play it and don't force your own set challenges upon others or critisize their way of playing.
You misinterpreted my post.

People have been calling me the "abuser", but like I said in my post, EVERYONE is abusing the AI (so everyone who calls me an abuser and plays SP is a hypocrite as far as I'm concerned). You MUST abuse the AI in order to win because you are always outnumbered and put at a disadvantage. He's trying to pretend the AI is something it's not in order to enjoy the game, and I was merely saying that ignoring this fact will cost tact. I believe he values skill, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned what I did.

In fact, I personally think it's difficult for him (or anyone) to understand WHY this is if they have not at least attempted the two maps I mentioned. That is the only reason I brought it in as a challenge, to kind of get him motivated to attempt them to see through MY eyes on the point I'm making.

Therefore, my post was actually meant to be helpful advice, not a demand or some irrational enforcement of an opinion. :wink:

@Vatrix, you didn't explain why you added extra troops in TSK 4. Did you also add extra troops in some other mission I'm not aware of? In addition, did you add a schoolhouse in the left town in TSK 18? If so, (1) why and (2) did you make some other building additions to other maps excluding those which you built the towns for the AI?
Invasion won: with 0 losses and without save reloads|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Border of Life Co-op Won in 1h33m55s|The Official KaM Speedrun Page
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Vatrix

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 10:52

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@cmowla
About TSK 4
Extra army was added EXACTLY because people were destroying the first village at the start. I, same as guys who were working on SR3 for TPR want this campaign to work as close as possible to original, but also to make this campaign compatible with Remake mechanics (yes that's how I defend some changes, which are not according to original), for example in TPR AI cities needed A LOT of time to start running properly, which resulted in MANY possibilities on how to defeat enemies from start. In Remake they needed less time, but you still could use that time to your advantage and sneak in the cities and destroy them - that's NOT how these campaigns were supposed to be played (at least from my point of view). So what I've done? I've made these AI cities running from the start by adding all units needed next to their building, added some wares into all houses, like they're working for some time (we all know Lauenburg did not magically conjured his city at the time we started to play mission - this brings us more realism). To get to the point - it is the same with added troops, your kingdom is mostly destroyed or controlled by enemies, you can't just simply defeat Lauenburg with what you have at the start of the mission, so I gave him twice a big army than he had for this to not happen. I think I've covered your question :D. Quite a big thought as I see it all written now. :O

Also what I remember more units are in mission 8, which is pointless and I will set it back in next version of my patch.

About extra buildings and stuff
Left city in mission 9 is different from original, because it just couldn't work like it was before, also right city is changed a bit. Top enemy city in mission 11 have more roads to eliminate traffic jams.Top green city in mission 12 is changed and city in mission 18 is changed (adding school to the left is because of gold smelter there, it helped to eliminate traffic jams a bit).

That's all what may interest you now I think :wink: .
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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Swiss Nisi

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 12:02

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

What I'm trying to say is: Play the game how you like to play it and don't force your own set challenges upon others or critisize their way of playing.
You misinterpreted my post.

People have been calling me the "abuser", but like I said in my post, EVERYONE is abusing the AI (so everyone who calls me an abuser and plays SP is a hypocrite as far as I'm concerned).

Therefore, my post was actually meant to be helpful advice, not a demand or some irrational enforcement of an opinion. :wink:

Well then I sincerely apologize to you for misunderstanding your post.
Why do you care? Just ignore these people and keep doing your stuff at least I like to watch it, new way to beat missions :D

About the abusing and outnumbered thing: Play TPR, especially Mission 9 and 10, and you'll see trying to abuse the AI results in he'll abuse you. (If you trigger one group the whole fu**** army attacks you in nearly every mission)

TPR is still playable I have a lot of fun atm playing it even though there are a few bugs^^
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cmowla

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 18:41

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Well then I sincerely apologize to you for misunderstanding your post.
Why do you care? Just ignore these people and keep doing your stuff at least I like to watch it, new way to beat missions :D
That's okay. I don't think it was my place to ignore him, considering I brought up my TSK 20 win to begin with. He was complaining about the defense of the green village of TSK 14 coming to attack him when he was in nearby combat with the offense, and I brought up my TSK 20 win because I exploit this type of AI behavior to kill it quickly. Again, trying to help change perspective. :) I do look forward to his response, because he seems to be a very bright gamer, and I'm interested to see what he thinks.

@Vatrix,
I don't at all disapprove with your changes, but please make sure that Lewin and Krom approve of such changes before you take this further. I know we should value AI performance over the exact match up of villages and quantity of troops, but they still might not like these changes.

More troops in TSK 8? LOL, did you add them because of my 31 minute win in r5503? :$ Maybe I should try to beat it in 30 minutes to change your mind. :mrgreen:
Invasion won: with 0 losses and without save reloads|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Border of Life Co-op Won in 1h33m55s|The Official KaM Speedrun Page
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Everstill

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 19:17

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

@Everstill
I like your point of view, I also like to play the way you're playing, it's just more fun :) (no offence cmowla, you know I don't have anything against you, you helped me a lot!)
What Campaign can I play right now that is not broken like TPR that Vatrix said?
On Foreign Lands and An Empire Destroyed, sadly Federation of Neryn have mission 6 broken I think.
Yes, I think it's more fun, you made a good point here:
but you still could use that time to your advantage and sneak in the cities and destroy them - that's NOT how these campaigns were supposed to be played (at least from my point of view)
No one design a mission where you can sneak in the city and destroy the Storehouse, School and Barracks while the entire army stand still in the front and later die by starvation. Like I said, I agree with everything you do that improve the experience (except no auto build AI, because it's a downgrade, but you already explained why you did and it's a good reason :) ), i'm playing the Remake because I want a better KnM (otherwise I would just play the original).

And shit, I started Deferation of Neryn, good thing I only played one mission, I will switch to the others :)
Oh, so you knew every tactic I used, eh. Hmm didn't seem like you did since you specifically said that this AI is smarter than the old AI, but I just proved to you that they can be interpreted as being "dumber". :rolleyes:

Think of it this way. If the AI was actually smart like you want them to be, you would have no chance with any of the missions because you are always outnumbered and outgunned, period. So I don't know why you're against my type of play when my type of play is in fact the optimal way to play this game for what it is. All you want to do is "mildly abuse", but you're still "abusing", so don't act like you're not. :wink:

As another example, we (humans) are like the hare and the AI is like the tortoise when it comes to IQ. We are both racing each other. You (and others like you) who play KaM without running at full speed (when you actually know how to run) are like the hare standing in front of the tortoise walking backwards. You want to maintain the lead, but you don't want to leave your opponent in the dust because "it's not as fun as a tease".
Well, I did not know that you could literally run the entire map luring the enemies like you did going in the middle, then in the right village, then in the west of your base and sending them to the Barbarian Doom Area. I was sure the enemy would retreat once they where too far from the defensive position by X amount of time.

The Tower movement preventing is what I did in the original to beat Mission 8 that I lost a lot, killing barbarian by barbarian. And in most of the missions I just sneaked with Scouts and destroyed the main buildings and they died by starvation, you could win entire missions with just 2 scouts... But this don't give me satisfaction, I like epic battles where I have to reposition my archers, send pikeman to wipe cavaliry, send cavalary to kill the Archers, etc... What fucks things up is the Watch Towers, they force you to not fight in front of the enemy base and the only way to kill, Archers, take ages to bring it down, so you have to lure the enemy away from the Towers. If I had a long range catapult, you can bet I would stand my troops right in front of the base and fight the enemy the closest as possible.

That's why in this my new run in the TSK campaign I don't sneaked in any town of the enemy and i'm glad in most of them you cannot even sneak anymore. I even defeated Mission 8 without preventing the Barbarians movement!

But yeah, I think this AI is smarter than the original, I remember in mission 20 I just keep a group of archers, suicided some Axe fighters while the archers attacked and them retreated. Now the AI seem to have a bigger Defensive Range (they call units far away to join the fight) and they follow you to hell (well, I did not know they literally folowed you forever), I had to make a big army to defeat them in one attack in the Remake. Plus, all attacking Archers would simple move to your troops and die without attacking, now I see them attacking much more. Being Smarter than the original don't mean they are still not dumb :/

And well, the AI outnumber you and outgunner you because it is dumber than you, that's why AIs in RTS, when you set the difficult to "hardest", they start to get double resources and no fog in the map, they don't get 'smarter', they just get cheats to become 'harder'. I don't want a perfect AI for Campaign, perfect AIs are suited for Multiplayer games, like the Berkeley Overmind in Starcraft that can stand even againt human players without any cheats. (of course the AI cannot beat a Pro player, but it's a good challenge, plus it can beat normal players). I just want a AI in the Campaign that make proper attacks and proper defense. What this means?

When they attack they will not retreat after destroying one of your buildings for no reason, they will not do dumb stuff like fighting againt the 300 spartans blocked by towers, they will attack the towers, it's in front of them and will not follow units beyond range, they are attacking, there is no reason to break the attacking wave just to follow something. But they will keep the classic "wave" format, they will not be like a Multiplayer AI and attack with everything, they will simple send waves like 3 knight groups and 1 archer group, the attack strategy just need to be smarter.

When defending, they will send troops to kill enemies attacking their storehouses and serfs that sneaked their defenses, they will not follow single units beyond their base and will realocate his troops imediately to where is most of the enemies (this is based in a Treat Map, a scout alone will have a Treat of 2 for example, so the AI send a 'defending power' of 4 to kill him (2 pikemen), an entire army will have a treat count of 200 for example, the AI will ignore secondary forces and will just send troops in defensive range there). If a scout passes in their base, they send 2 pikemen to kill, because it's more than necessary, if the pikes end in a ambush very far, the machine learning part of the AI will not fall for the same trick twice and will retreat the pikemens once they calculate it's dangerous to be ambushed.

That's it, just a more "alive" AI that appears to be smart. I don't want a Berkeley Overmind in my Campaigns just like I don't want a 600 Barbarians Attack Wave because the game is balanced around the AI being very dumb.

And i'm not against the way you play, i'm not against you, I was not trying to offend you in any way, don't get me wrong! It's just for me that it's not fun doing this kind of things, just like for the other guy here that like to Build a giant city, that's where the fun for him, for you is to use the "most optimal way". Well, in the original the "most optimal" is to simple cancel the animation of the Archers and have them attack much faster, but I really think no one design a mission based on the abuse of a bug to fight in the 'most optimal way'. Just like how in TPR with Balistas you could hold a infinite amount of AI enemies because they could not react to it.
Clearly what you want is a challenge. A map that, no matter how hard you try to abuse the AI, they can still kill you effortlessly. With this being the case, I'm not sure why Vatrix didn't mention his "Two Sides" (building and fighting map) in r6720. In addition, I'd recommend "Invasion" (fighting map). If you do decide to play these single maps (Two Sides should take about 5-6 hours, without reloading saves and Invasion should take an hour and a half without reloading saves), note that in "Two Sides", you have to use the market to get gold and iron weapons. (The coal, gold, and iron mines are there, but you cannot process their ore.) In addition, the stone mountain at the top of the map is not mine-able (so you will probably have to trade for stone later in the game).

That is, I challenge you to beat these two maps without reloading saves. No time limit. Being able to beat these two maps (especially invasion) without reloading saves will prove to you that playing KaM with all of your heart and soul in the campaigns is not bad after all because you can actually be always ready to beat a real challenge. :wink:

In addition, you can start trying to beat the campaigns as fast as possible or without losing any units like I have. That is a different type of challenge in of itself (and it's good training for efficiency for thinking ahead and reacting quickly).

Building a powerful city and actually having to TRY to survive is a beautiful thing--if and only if it's absolutely necessary--, but when you limit yourself/put weights on your potential for the purpose of being entertained, you will not be able to fight a real challenge. I've seen a pattern on this site over and over. Players claim a map is unbeatable, and I beat it. I used to be like everyone else, where I limited myself to playing in a way that's fun, but that worked against me when I wanted my skills to be developed.

Therefore, in conclusion, I believe those who do not want to limit themselves and who do not want to abuse the AI started playing multiplayer for this very reason. The reason why I stayed in single player as of this moment is because when I wanted to play multiplayer when I first started playing this game, my computer and internet was too slow, and the remake did not exist until about a decade later. I've become so use to single player that it's really hard for me to picture how this game has any meaning in multiplayer (although my perspective is slowly changing). The reason now why I haven't played multiplayer is because I'm trying to teach truths behind this game and to show other humans how to view the AI correctly. Once I'm finished writing quick-win walkthroughs for the original campaigns, I might in fact start multiplayer myself.
No no, I don't want a map where no matter how much I try to abuse the AI, they can still kil you effortlessly, I can simple play Multiplayer if I want this, that's where the best AI and hardest challenge is.

A campaign is where you get into a history, it is immersive. I want epic battles, like how I'm the king guard general and I must siege Castles and Walls with my superior tatics or missions like to protect a Village or something like that (I don't know why the original campaign don't have missions like 'make 500 food in 1 hour' or 'protect your base for 2 hours'). Village layout is important, because logistics is a great part of this game, so this is one of the 'skills' needed. Sending pikes against horses or flanking with knights too.

You see, how you talk about this two missions, it appears that it is balanced around playing "the most optimal way", if there was still the Archers faster attack bug, this maps would be based on this things too, so there is only 'one way' to win the map, just like if we had Balistas, the Map would send a Infinite Wave of Enemies to you and the only way to beat is making a balista wall. But well, they are just Stand Alone Scenarios, just challenges, it's ok for them to be a very hard challenge. I will try this maps once I finish the Campaigns, but I can't promise I will not use Saves because I don't have this much time to play. (plus i'm very unlucky, in Mission 20 I did the same thing 2 times, the first one everyone of my units died and the Yellow allied army had a lot of warriors let, the second time I did the same thing and had a lot of units left but the yellow allied army was wiped and 10 of the remaining knights attacked me, KnM is a very random game)

And I really only Tryhard in multiplayer games, I play a lot of Real Time Strategy, but I only do a German 7 minute Rush in Age of Empires 3 in multiplayer, or a Loki Hersir Rush in Age of Mythology, in singleplayer I want to have fun, and that's how I make more fun, creating the illusion that the AI is better than it is and limiting my actions to make my illusions real and creating a more epic battle. In the Battle for the Middle Earth for example, I replayed the Helms Deep mission over and over and let the Uruk Hai destroy my Wall just to force me to retreat to the Inner Walls and create a entertaining battle.

Again, sorry if I offeded you, keep making your speed runs, it's entertaining to watch, but for me, it's not fun to play this way ;)
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Vatrix

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KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Location: Czech Republic

Post 24 Jan 2015, 19:19

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

I don't at all disapprove with your changes, but please make sure that Lewin and Krom approve of such changes before you take this further. I know we should value AI performance over the exact match up of villages and quantity of troops, but they still might not like these changes.
Since they're not very active now, I just did what I thought would be good. If I rely on them now, my fixes will take forever to be finished. They can say what they don't want when they come back.
More troops in TSK 8? LOL, did you add them because of my 31 minute win in r5503? :$ Maybe I should try to beat it in 30 minutes to change your mind. :mrgreen:
It was because I was thinking that it would be good for enemies to have every kind of troop defending their town (+ lances & horses).

Please don't do that, I can't make changes which will stop you from winning. It's not my campaign :mrgreen:.

*Edit:
Hey you two guys (cmowla, Everstill), you both made a good points and explained your point of view. Thank you for time spent here on writing these things.

BUT please stop filling my topic with this now, it's "Vatrix's Campaign Fixes" after all, not "cmowla's and Evertstill's battle tactics" :D

I need help with fixing here ... anyone listening ... hello?

*Edit2:
BTW I'm just playing my fixes and saving replays for all of you to see how I'm playing my missions :wink:
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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The Dark Lord

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Post 24 Jan 2015, 22:49

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

To get to the point - it is the same with added troops, your kingdom is mostly destroyed or controlled by enemies, you can't just simply defeat Lauenburg with what you have at the start of the mission, so I gave him twice a big army than he had for this to not happen.
This is your interpretation of the storyline. The thing is, it is not up to you to decide that the player shouldn't be able to destroy the first village with his initial army. If it was possible in the original campaign, it should be possible in the Remake's version too. Since building in the Remake is faster than in the original game, I agree with adding a few extra troops/wares/whatever to maintain the difficulty. But to double the army count...? :?
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Ben

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Post 25 Jan 2015, 20:01

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

I agree with Dark Lord. Actually, I think that these changes shouldn't be in the Remake. They should be a mod "Vatrix's TSK Balance Mod" or something. You keep make changes based on what you believe is right. Well that's all fine and good, but please don't force it on others.
I used to spam this forum so much...
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Vatrix

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Post 26 Jan 2015, 17:13

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

I thought I'll do it the same as guys who made SR3 (I dunno who that was). Some changes really stopped you from destroying your enemies at the start. I'll do a ToDo list soon, so everyone can say what to do and what to not do :wink: .

BTW I did not just doubled the army like "Hmm there's so little troops, I'll double them!", but I played with different amount of troops, same with defence positions. I'm taking it seriously and every change has a purpose.

If you want to have everything TSK-like, then I should ignore most of RC changes, too. Which means that I'll have to redo every mission again. (but if community say so, I'll do that of course :wink: )
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
<<

Vatrix

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Post 27 Jan 2015, 12:49

Re: Vatrix's Campaign Fixes

Todo for next patch (TSK):
Needed:
General:
- block fish in all missions (Bens idea, I really like it)
- remove all fish from storehouses
- market balancing
- recruit timer balancing
- AI wares balancing (mostly gold and timber)
- balance missions difficulty
- this is not he right difficulty order:
TSK 11
TSK 8
TSK 14
TSK 7, TSK 15
TSK 12
TSK 20
TSK 9
TSK 4
TSK 5
TSK 16
TSK 18
TSK 1
TSK 2
TSK 4
- make both cities have wares in all houses from start (like the city is working already)
- improve top yellows attacks
- improve top yellows defence positions
- change radius of bottom yellows defence positions (still not same as in original + not well balanced)
- switch of defend allies (useless, just annoying)

TSK 5
- make both cities have wares in all houses from start (like the city is working already)
- improve defence positions
- first blue enemy attack should happen sooner (-15 minutes I assume)
- maroon horses defence positions are redone in patch 1.0, but needs more work

TSK 8
- redo defence positions of both enemies

TSK 9
- bottom-right enemy should make soldiers after at least 60 minutes (also need more feedback on this) - he should be building his city instead of making army

TSK 12
- moorbach should not attack you (dont know if I should let him, in patch 1.0 I set him to attack human player, but its not according to original) - what do you think?
- bottom green guy is not working the same way as in original - need more work

TSK 20
- need complete enemy attacks rebalancing
- fix problems with iron supply balance for top enemy

Optional (+ not according to original):
TSK 8
1)
- make both enemies make only leather units
- results in rebuilding both cities to be more leather-like
2)
- after depleting iron, instead of axemen they should build barbarians (dynamic script)

With your feedback Ill extend this list, so I ask you again to write here every little thing (related to my campaign :wink: )

Also any opinion on my Todo list? :)
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!

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