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New Campaign On Foreign Lands

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Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3822

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

ICQ: 269127056

Website: http://lewin.hodgman.id.au

Yahoo Messenger: lewinlewinhodgman

Location: Australia

Post 10 Sep 2014, 08:26

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

I replaced the files, loaded my game but still no victory.
or did I do something wrong? need I to start it all over now?
Unfortunately you'll need to start the mission again. There's no way to update a saved game with the new version of the campaign.
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OnlyMe

Serf

Posts: 5

Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 18:54

Post 10 Sep 2014, 09:06

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

nooooo :p
not that mission again, took me a 100 tries and 18 saves xD
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cmowla

User avatar

Knight

Posts: 446

Joined: 04 Aug 2013, 19:59

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Location: United States

Post 10 Sep 2014, 17:08

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

I replaced the files, loaded my game but still no victory.
or did I do something wrong?
Did you at any point during the initial battle destroy any buildings? If so, that might be a cause. Also, are you playing this map in r6547 release candidate 2, or in r5503? (The scripts may not work in other versions: they are supposed to work in r6547.)
Invasion won: with 0 losses and without save reloads|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Border of Life Co-op Won in 1h33m55s|The Official KaM Speedrun Page
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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grayter

Barbarian

Posts: 107

Joined: 18 Aug 2014, 12:06

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: Poland

Post 11 Sep 2014, 07:12

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

I replaced the files, loaded my game but still no victory.
or did I do something wrong?
Did you at any point during the initial battle destroy any buildings? If so, that might be a cause. Also, are you playing this map in r6547 release candidate 2, or in r5503? (The scripts may not work in other versions: they are supposed to work in r6547.)

You can destroy some buildings at the beginning except storehouses. However after battle you get self-sufficient town and you can focus on weapons production. If you destroy any building you will be probably forced to rebuild it.

@cmowla
Especially for you I rewrited this mission once again from scratch :D I hope that now you will not find some super way to bypass the scripts, but if this mission is still to easy please send me a replay again :P

I attach zip file with new version of OFL campaign. A lot of stuff has been fixed including email bug reports sended me from kam remake email.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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OnlyMe

Serf

Posts: 5

Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 18:54

Post 11 Sep 2014, 12:13

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

I replaced the files, loaded my game but still no victory.
or did I do something wrong?
Did you at any point during the initial battle destroy any buildings? If so, that might be a cause. Also, are you playing this map in r6547 release candidate 2, or in r5503? (The scripts may not work in other versions: they are supposed to work in r6547.)

You can destroy some buildings at the beginning except storehouses. However after battle you get self-sufficient town and you can focus on weapons production. If you destroy any building you will be probably forced to rebuild it.

@cmowla
Especially for you I rewrited this mission once again from scratch :D I hope that now you will not find some super way to bypass the scripts, but if this mission is still to easy please send me a replay again :P

I attach zip file with new version of OFL campaign. A lot of stuff has been fixed including email bug reports sended me from kam remake email.

Thanks guys, I made it after a few tries, saw you made it even harder and got me less troops in mission 1 ;)
but I managed.
No, i did not destroy any buildings, did it the first time, the storehouse was a good place for my crossbow, but if you win the battle, you instant loose because you destroyed the warehouse. you cant destroy any building, because if you destroy the tower on your left side, you cant rebuild it. In this mission you cant build any towers, so instant loose again I think ;)

Now working on #2 going slow, not that skilled kind of player I suppose xD
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pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 11 Sep 2014, 12:33

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

not that skilled kind of player I suppose xD
I would rather say "not the good balanced campaign."
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grayter

Barbarian

Posts: 107

Joined: 18 Aug 2014, 12:06

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: Poland

Post 11 Sep 2014, 13:17

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

not that skilled kind of player I suppose xD
I would rather say "not the good balanced campaign."
I would rather say "good balanced but need to think, in economic way".

If you win the first battle you can win this mission in 1:30h. Without attacks, without losses etc.

I know that the first impression of that campaign was horrible, but please believe me that I didn't have any time to test it earlier. My campaign was finished the day before r6547 release.
So I hope that you give me a second chance @pawel95 because your criticism is not constructive so far.
If you have any proposals to improve this campaign please let me know.
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pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 11 Sep 2014, 13:35

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

Sorry, but I have given enough constructive critisism in this topic. I wrote that the balance is also bad and you can win most missions only with "abusive" tactics and the campaign overall wasn´t fun to play for me. That cannot be constructive really, because maybe it´s fun for someone else, but not for me. I already explained in an earlier post why it´s not fun for me (last mission too easy, long hard missoins etc.). You do not need a second chance from me, there are actualy 1504 Users on this Forum. If one or another user doesn´t like your campaign, there are still 1500 that might love it.... I also said it hasn´t the "standard" of tsk/tpr/vas´s campmaigns (visualy and gameplay/I also said that dyn. scripts are awesome, but this alone doesn´t make a good campaign), but I won´t repeat everything here :wink:
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grayter

Barbarian

Posts: 107

Joined: 18 Aug 2014, 12:06

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: Poland

Post 11 Sep 2014, 14:01

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

Yeah, you are probably right. I think that I need to add some more info about this campaign in description. Something like 'This campaign is unconventional and if you hasn't strong nerves that campaign is not for you" :lol:
I'm joking of course but I think about adding some more info.
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pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 11 Sep 2014, 14:21

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

This campaign is unconventional and if you hasn't strong nerves that campaign is not for you" :lol:
You can give a description whatever you like. I would give it probably "Not a KaM campaign, but a training to abuse troops and using of many dynamic scripts." :lol:
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Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3822

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

ICQ: 269127056

Website: http://lewin.hodgman.id.au

Yahoo Messenger: lewinlewinhodgman

Location: Australia

Post 13 Sep 2014, 02:19

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

Some people are being very critical (and sometimes rude) about this campaign, so I would like to make this thread more constructive. grayter clearly wants to improve the campaign and is open to suggestions, he's already posted an update based on reported problems. It's not easy to put together an 11 mission campaign which is bug free, so I don't think it should be judged on the fact that the first version had some bugs (that's partially my fault for including it in the RC as soon as he first sent it to me without letting him test script/AI changes since r5503).

So the main complaints seem to be:
- Too difficult, especially certain missions (did grayter's update fix this? I think this was partially due to bugs or AI changes since r5503).
- Goals aren't clear in some missions: don't harm civilians, capture space, etc. (please make suggestions for how to clarify the goals in the messages)
- Map quality isn't perfect (can be improved with constructive criticism, and IMO the quality is acceptable, but could be improved)
- Gameplay is unconventional: small spaces, dynamic scripts, etc. (why is everyone opposed to something different? Not every KaM battle needs to be in a big open field. Vas' campaign is unconventional too but in different ways. A few missions with limited space is good IMO)

I agree that overall the quality of the campaign seems to be lower than Vas' campaign The Federation of Nyern. But I don't think it's too low to not include it, and grayter is still making improvements. A lot of players ask us by email or Facebook about adding more campaigns. Singleplayer is still very popular and I think if we include this campaign a lot of players will get a lot of fun out of it.

Please post constructive criticism of the campaign, and say what you think should be changed to improve it. Maybe someone can give grayter some more hints to improve the terrain quality? (that often happens when someone posts a new MP map here)



Here is some constructive criticism from me:

- Your English is not perfect (grammatical errors), and I think you should avoid informal language (example: mission 2 "Oh, I forgot") because you're meant to be the leader of an army. If you don't know someone to help you with it I can do some quick corrections

- Your hills are elevated too unevenly. It looks good if you make dark diagonal cracks in the hills. Open TSK/TPR maps in the map editor and compare the hills to yours

- I personally don't like that you used the fast flowing water in most places. It doesn't make sense in many places because there's nothing to make the water flow so fast (e.g. fish ponds in mission 8, beach in the top right mission 6, rivers with swamps/marsh, etc.). In the case of rivers it's also better if you make the water flow around bends. This requires placing tiles by hand unfortunately, magic water can't help with that.
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dicsoupcan

Moorbach's Guard

Posts: 1314

Joined: 12 Feb 2012, 21:36

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 13 Sep 2014, 12:06

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

i have no idea how the campaign is right now, i'll need to retest it in order to form a new opinion about it. But since the campaign will be even harder then Vas his campaign ( he gave quite a challenge) the player should get some kind of fair warning beforehand.

i do think that in order to give constructive feedback, we should start to make some kind of list so people can give the feedback more structured. something like the following:

gameplay:
- can every mission be actually won in the campaign;
- are the missions repetitive or varied;
- are the objectives clear in every mission;
- are there any bugs in the script to fix;
- general rating of the fun level of the missions.

story:
- are there major plotholes in the story;
- how well do the missions represent the story;
- do the mission briefings connect corretly;
- general rating of how interesting the story is;

maps:
- are there any bad tile connections;
- how well is the elevation made;
- is the waterflow working correctly;
- are there annoying unbuild/walkabe tiles;
- how well are objects placed (as in is it spammed randomly to fill up the map or is it used in moderation);
- general impression of map quality.

i'll give a detailed impression whenever i have the time to do so.
also i want to think of a way to get some of the the many sp players to become active on the forum, because it is heavily represented by mp players which imo is a bit of a shame since sp can be fun and still plays a major role in the remake.

*edit* if i may be rude to ask so. Grayter did you playtest your campaign (also post update)? that would spare me some work already to know that you can pass every mission, and also you might have replays of winning missions so if i cannot get past somewhere you could show me the way. because if i recall correctly some missions had a certain gimmick to them you needed to solve.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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pawel95

Castle Guard Swordsman

Posts: 1912

Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

Post 13 Sep 2014, 13:27

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

For me there are just 2 different MAIN THINGS about balance how hard the campaign is.

1. There are easy missions (TSK01: You can win in without any problems, even if you loose your all starting army you can win this game very easy)
2. There are hard missions: (Vas02: You have to decide which army do you will make, because you have only a few recources and you have also to try a few times how to fight best in your castle)
3. There are missions that are so hard that you can win only with strict abuse/tricking the ai/camping and waiting for the ai to kill himselves. (Ofl01: Most people couldn´t beat it after many tries. You can do this mission no problem, but you need either to split your troops into 1000 groups and get an "cheated" advantage of this mission or you have to be luky, like I was, and somehow win this mission by letting the AI come to your starting position and you just do NOTHING, only a few replacements of your troops).


So what I want to say. For me (and for many other classical kam SP players) the Part of gaming that is fun to play only exist between 1. and 2. Just take Mission 01 of your campaign as a comparision to any other mission in tsk/tpr/vas. You will not find a single mission where you have to just be as passive and as AI-abusive like in your mission.

One other things for you as a mission/map maker: There are 2 ways to increase the difficulty:

1.) Just give the AI 1500 troops and you will get a small castle and like 30 swordmen and 20 xbows, Have fun.
2.) You give the AI a bit more soldiers, the Human player has some more possiblites to play (in your mission there is only one possibility to play it on the start, you can´t even get out of the startingposition and you already loose) and you can set some special extras for the AI later on (That´s how most of the campaign missions work. The AI is making more troops later on/there are more troops coming after a certain time...)

You just use Number 1.) and that´s in my opinion also a mistake that you shouldn´t do. Sure you can tell me "Haha I should do a description with !HARD CAMPAIGN! " I really like hard missions, that´s what SP is about. However there is a difference between having fun and just having no possiblities, having no fun and to hope that you will trick the AI somehow or you will somehow survive...
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Lewin

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3822

Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 22:00

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

ICQ: 269127056

Website: http://lewin.hodgman.id.au

Yahoo Messenger: lewinlewinhodgman

Location: Australia

Post 13 Sep 2014, 14:19

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

For the campaign to be included in the next KaM Remake version it should not be too difficult. A bit more difficult than the original campaigns is fine, but not too much. We don't want to make KaM singleplayer into a hardcore game, it should be about having fun for the majority of our players. I assumed the original difficulty of the campaign was because of AI differences between r5503 and RC2. I agree with pawel that this is bad and should be avoided:
There are missions that are so hard that you can win only with strict abuse/tricking the ai/camping and waiting for the ai to kill himselves. (Ofl01: Most people couldn´t beat it after many tries. You can do this mission no problem, but you need either to split your troops into 1000 groups and get an "cheated" advantage of this mission or you have to be luky, like I was, and somehow win this mission by letting the AI come to your starting position and you just do NOTHING, only a few replacements of your troops).
@grayter: Is your campaign intended to be like that?
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grayter

Barbarian

Posts: 107

Joined: 18 Aug 2014, 12:06

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Location: Poland

Post 13 Sep 2014, 17:18

Re: New Campaign On Foreign Lands

The first mission is intended like that because it need to fit with story. Other missions should be more simple to win. I don't know how pass this mission with tricking the ai, so please attach a replay files. In the next update I would like to fix problems with unclear goals and grammar. I need more time to improve maps quality because it is very time consuming work. But if someone would like to help it will be appreciated. I think I will learn more in that way instead of studying original campaign maps, but hey it is not impossible to do but I need time.

Thanks for constructing (finally) critics, now I know what to do next with this campaign.

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