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Two Sides

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cmowla

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Knight

Posts: 403

Joined: 04 Aug 2013, 19:59

Location: United States

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 09 Jun 2014, 18:20

Re: Two Sides

You have nothing to worry about, vatrix(CZ).

In fact, the new Nightly has actually improved your map. Your villages probably produce troops 20% faster.

I built the most productive town so far, and, playing this map so many times already, I've never seen it this difficult (still good, don't make it easier!).

I was attacked more often than I remember, and so in this particular game, even though I attempted to finish earlier (since my village produced iron weapons probably as fast as anyone can having a well-designed village with abundant resources of coal and iron veins--without the market), because of the increased frequency of the attacks, I had to settle to finish in over 6.5 hours. I was more relentless in my attempts to drive out the AI quickly, but with its increased AI productivity, despite that my village was almost twice as productive as it was in my first win in r6157, I not only didn't finish more quickly, it took longer!

(As always, I played this map without reloading saves to make sure the replay works.)
cmowla Two Sides (r6367 Nightly).zip

To the developers, excellent job. I believe with proper map design such as vatrix(CZ)'s, this is currently the best AI I have ever seen KaM have as of yet.

vatrix(CZ)'s specific AI design is both excellent defensively and offensively (words cannot express how well it is, only by watching replays like the above can one see the perfection of his design!).

I can't thank the KaM community enough for choosing this map for the remake. It deserves to be there!
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Last edited by cmowla on 09 Jun 2014, 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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Skypper

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Post 09 Jun 2014, 19:32

Re: Two Sides

I am afraid that if you make the mission harder than it already was, most people won't finish it...
If cmowla needs 6,5 hours most people properly need 8+ hours and I don't think that people want to spend so much time on one mission.
If you want it to be so hard, leave it this way, but if you want more people to finish it I think you should make it easier
Greets Skypper (Totally Insane)

- Beginning map maker -
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Vatrix

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Knight

Posts: 410

Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 09 Jun 2014, 20:13

Re: Two Sides

I will keep it this hard now and if there will be more requests to make it easier, I will consider it. Thanks Cmowla for help!
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Knight

Posts: 403

Joined: 04 Aug 2013, 19:59

Location: United States

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 09 Jun 2014, 20:22

Re: Two Sides

vatrix (CZ) wrote:Thanks Cmowla for help!
Your welcome. :)

I just noticed that I produced 6200 corn :lol:
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
<<

Vatrix

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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 20 Jun 2014, 12:44

Re: Two Sides

I'm thinking about making the map bigger for longer gameplay since you have to play about 6 hours to win. Please say your opinion.
Thanks,
Vatrix
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Knight

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Joined: 04 Aug 2013, 19:59

Location: United States

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 20 Jun 2014, 16:36

Re: Two Sides

vatrix (CZ) wrote:I'm thinking about making the map bigger for longer gameplay since you have to play about 6 hours to win. Please say your opinion.
Thanks,
Vatrix
I'm not sure why Skypper mentioned that it's too long of a game to begin with, as this is SP (which means you can always save the game and resume playing later). The only reason I take about 6 hours to win it (on average) is because I have played it without reloading saves; and the reason I chose not to reload saves was to produce a working replay for you and others to see just how good your map is designed. If I would have reloaded saves, I bet I could finish this map in 4.5 hours, which is a little less than what it takes for the average player to finish TSK20...when I won TSK20 in 11.5 minutes in r5503, it was only because I reloaded saves. It would probably take me an hour to beat without reloading saves...best case scenario (but I'm sure I could beat TSK20 in the original game (TPR) in a shorter time without reloading saves because that AI is dumb).

With the exception of my first (and maybe second) time playing the first version of this map in r5503, I haven't been building below the golden ore mountains, and therefore I have not been using all of the space given to me (my villages in my past two wins had fewer than 60 serfs), and therefore I'm not quite sure why expanding the map at the moment would shorten gameplay from this aspect of the game, if you're only basing how long the gameplay is off of me.

I guess the main problem is that no one besides me and Papundekl have won this map (but he played it in r5503 which doesn't really represent the current AI at all), and thus I think at the moment maybe it would be a good idea to just wait for other players to WIN it in the new Nightly to decide whether expanding the building space will be beneficial for some other reason than game time, because, as I have already emphasized in this post, gameplay time can be minimized by reloading saves--no one has to play without reloading saves like I did. Hopefully their replay will work for us to see how they beat it, but they can always describe how they beat it the old fashioned way if it doesn't.
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
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pawel95

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Castle Guard Swordsman

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Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 22:00

Location: "Pawel95" on Youtube.com

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 20 Jun 2014, 16:57

Re: Two Sides

In my opinion the game time between 5 and 6 hours is just fine. Had 2 days to enjoy it, no need to make it shorter/faster in my opinion :D
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Vatrix

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Knight

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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 20 Jun 2014, 18:59

Re: Two Sides

Ok, I will see how other players will fight with my map. Thanks for your opinion. And for others, play, play, play, win, show replay, say its super and... play again! :mrgreen:
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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cmowla

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Posts: 403

Joined: 04 Aug 2013, 19:59

Location: United States

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 21 Jun 2014, 06:22

Re: Two Sides

Don't tempt me! I just might play it again! :D

By the way, when are you going to play it and show us your replay? I'd be interested to see how the creator defeats his creation!

(Oh, and you're welcome. I, like pawel95, think it's fine...I wish he would post a replay!!!)
Invasion and Lava Valley with 0 losses|Invasion (without saves)|TSK 20 in 4.47 minutes|Northern Islands I Co-op in 1.71 hours
What makes me an Expert isn't my skill in of itself but my desire to win big.
<<

Vatrix

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Knight

Posts: 410

Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 26 Jun 2014, 14:25

Re: Two Sides

I think I will make some replay from "how I cannot beat my map" in holiday time.
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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Skypper

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Joined: 28 Jun 2013, 09:37

Location: Dutch :D

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 26 Jun 2014, 14:56

Re: Two Sides

hahahaha don't worry had the same with my Invasion(ZA)
Greets Skypper (Totally Insane)

- Beginning map maker -
<<

Vatrix

User avatar

Knight

Posts: 410

Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 26 Jun 2014, 19:28

Re: Two Sides

I'm glad I'm not alone (H) .
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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Drummerdude48

Serf

Posts: 7

Joined: 22 Jun 2014, 17:31

Location: Ireland

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 26 Jun 2014, 20:18

Re: Two Sides

cmowla wrote:I built the most productive town so far, and, playing this map so many times already, I've never seen it this difficult (still good, don't make it easier!).

I was attacked more often than I remember, and so in this particular game, even though I attempted to finish earlier (since my village produced iron weapons probably as fast as anyone can having a well-designed village with abundant resources of coal and iron veins--without the market), because of the increased frequency of the attacks, I had to settle to finish in over 6.5 hours. I was more relentless in my attempts to drive out the AI quickly, but with its increased AI productivity, despite that my village was almost twice as productive as it was in my first win in r6157, I not only didn't finish more quickly, it took longer!

To the developers, excellent job. I believe with proper map design such as vatrix(CZ)'s, this is currently the best AI I have ever seen KaM have as of yet.

vatrix(CZ)'s specific AI design is both excellent defensively and offensively (words cannot express how well it is, only by watching replays like the above can one see the perfection of his design!).

I can't thank the KaM community enough for choosing this map for the remake. It deserves to be there!


I have not been around this community for long but when I hear comments like this from a player/user who's name I hear being suggested in a "best player" list it makes me look twice. In my mind anyone who is one of the top players in this game and makes these comments I'm going to heed well. As such I'll be giving this map a bash as for years I have wanted a map that will really be a continuous challenge. From what Ive heard this might be the one for me! haha.

Just wondering if this map will work ok with r5503 and if not where can I get a newer version of the remake (the KaMremake site seems to only have r5503 as the latest version?) that was mentioned by cmowla (r6157?)

In regards to how long it takes to finish a map, I have never minded how long it takes so long as it is continuously interesting. But yeah, I have no problem sinking hours upon hours into missions! :D

Also I know this is a bit off topic but can you guys point me in the direction of other challenging maps that I can have a crack at? :) Or even jsut a thread (tbh I havent had a proper look yet through the forums)
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Skypper

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Knight

Posts: 436

Joined: 28 Jun 2013, 09:37

Location: Dutch :D

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 26 Jun 2014, 20:35

Re: Two Sides

I thought the original version of this map was made in r5503 and for so far I know there aren't added scripts that don't work in that version.
But the latest version in of this map is made for the newest nightly r6367

If you want you can try Invasion Link, it is a fighting map, but you need the newest version r6367 or higher
Greets Skypper (Totally Insane)

- Beginning map maker -
<<

Vatrix

User avatar

Knight

Posts: 410

Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:30

Location: Czech Republic

KaM Skill Level: Veteran

Post 26 Jun 2014, 22:38

Re: Two Sides

Best version for playing this map is r6367
I fixed The Shattered Kingdom and The Peasants Rebellion here!
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