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Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

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Duke Valennius

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Post 13 Jul 2013, 19:14

Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Now, you look at this and say: "Oh, how jolly! Another of those fighting maps..." But lo! This one will be some heavy-duty fighting that can take more than hour to win, provided 8 players and balanced teams. Now let me explain what's the trick over here...

You start with barracks, storehouse, handful of serfs, recruits, weapons and some towers. Over time, you're receiving recruits and weapons - all will stockpile to certain limits. If one of your teammates bites the dust, you will receive more goods to help you keep up with your enemies - this way 1 vs 4 should be theoretically balanced - at least resource-wise (though, there will be quite a traffic jam for the lone player). Moreover, if one team is pushing forward with army but the second one is camping - attacking team will be getting points, while camping team more weapons and recruits (in case they were beaten up badly, this will help them recover to some extent)

But wait! There's more to it! There are two timers running that will keep you on your toes. First is the stalemate timer - if this one hits zero - everyone loses (unless game says otherwise). If some unit gets killed, timer is reset. Second is the elimination timer - if this one hits zero - player with lowest score loses and timer resets. Player can also be defeated by losing barracks or storehouse - in this case timer is also reset. You earn points for killing units or defeating player, lose points for losing units, especially ranged (now, you cannot be a good general with getting your archers flanked, right?) and lose hell of a points for starved unit!(however unnecessary is that) You also lose some points for even equipping ranged units (to prevent certain players from ranged-heavy army, while his teammates do cannonfodder for him, and then losing because of their loses and all kills going for ranged). Crazy? Certainly! But at any rate, rule is same for all players. Effectiveness of this measures is yet to be determined. And that's where you come in!

What needs to be tested:
- fun coefficient :)
- effectiveness of anti ranged-heavy army policy
- timer values. Are they crazy low? Or damn too long? Whatever?
- weapon and recruit rations. Are weapons and recruit scarce in 4vs4? Are weapons and recruits arriving too fast when there is one player in team? (remember, weapons won't get stuck in storehouse, serfs are there mostly for effect)
- is number of starting weapons appropriate?
- are stockpiling limits a hindrance? (max 50 weapons per type, 100 per armour, 50 recruits at the moment)
- anything really...
- comments on how awful it looks, if applicable, are also welcome, provided there is some advice how to remedy the situation

Some "breathtaking" images, especially fight against AI:
Image
Overview
Image
Some early game test play
Image
Later stage of the same test play

Now go out on blood-red battlefield to do some heavy testing! Please?
If someone will actually test it, please also post replays!

-- edits no.1:
- added hills to bases to help in defending, you could get flanked too easy when not 4vs4, especially in first attack (hopefully, it also motivates players not to camp, because sallying forth might become harder)
- removed penalty for equipping ranged units (no effect really...)
- reduced penalty for losing ranged units
- reduced rations of ranged weapons
- now every 8th unit dead will reset stalemate timer (to prevent possible scenario when one team camps and accumulates units faster, sending out one militia to die; however, bonus to campers shouldn't outweigh point bonus to attackers)
- when stalemate timer reaches zero and one team is forward (in game referred to as 'sieging') and other is camping, camping team loses, attackers win
- changed starting resources in barracks, to prevent 'all knights' (and hopefully motivate for some tactics)

-- edits no.2:
- increased axe rate
- slightly decreased horse rate
- balanced resources teamwise at start if teams are imbalanced
- defeated player's army will be sent to his base
- elimination timer decreased from 12 to 10 minutes
- corner positions should now be equally defendable as others
- non-walkable hills are now made of rocks, except those between teammates (+other map improvements)

-- edits no.3:
- slightly decreased horse rate (again)
- some tuning to timers
- rebalanced reinforcements for campers (now, number of players in both teams is considered)
- fixed cameo appearance of division by zero, that was introduced by improved reinforcements for campers
- automatic alliance and share fog creation - no more yelling in chat room: "hey noob, join team 2 !!!!1!1", hopefully team chat broken this way, manual teams recommended

-- edits no.4:
- increased rate of weapons, decreased rate of recruits (recruits are scarce in beginning, weapons in late game (in case of 4vs4))
- decreased rate of reinforcements for campers,
- minor adjustments to map (chaotic water flow in lake fixed, removed some unwalkable tiles)

Thanks goes to testers:
Omigoshe, Sebas, Thommerd, czechnoob, Reek, BLaD3, WollongongWolf, Shadaoe, Szellentés, Bence, 2 czech players whose names I shamefully forgot to write down or save a replay, woloszek, StarWars, saxxor

-- edits no.5:
- minor balancing changes
- minor map fixes
- minor text fixes
- uploaded after a year just in case it will make it to new remake release
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Last edited by Duke Valennius on 02 Aug 2014, 13:42, edited 5 times in total.
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Bence791

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Post 13 Jul 2013, 20:01

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

After reading the description you have given, I can already see this map as massive camping.
Why?
Because you give advantages to the player who camps. I think the bonus weapons to campers should be removed, but I can agree on the points to the dominator of the battlefield ;) If you say that this isn't true, then look at it: Player A camps, gets many weapons. Player B dominates the battlefield, but doesn't have so many soldiers. As the Stalemate timer gets closer to 0, Player A goes outside to kill 1 soldier of Player B (or send 1 soldier outside so that guy is killed and the timer is reset), or even his whole army with the boosted amount of weapons, so Player B loses the plus points given to him for being agressive. Then Player A goes back and continues camping. This isn't good at all.

On the second hand, taking points for equipping ranged? Why? :o I see the thing you want to prevent by this, but it is bad imo.


Anyway I like the idea, just not in the way you made it ;) It is too abusable atm.
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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Duke Valennius

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Post 13 Jul 2013, 20:30

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

After reading the description you have given, I can already see this map as massive camping.
Why?
Because you give advantages to the player who camps. I think the bonus weapons to campers should be removed, but I can agree on the points to the dominator of the battlefield ;) If you say that this isn't true, then look at it: Player A camps, gets many weapons. Player B dominates the battlefield, but doesn't have so many soldiers. As the Stalemate timer gets closer to 0, Player A goes outside to kill 1 soldier of Player B (or send 1 soldier outside so that guy is killed and the timer is reset), or even his whole army with the boosted amount of weapons, so Player B loses the plus points given to him for being agressive. Then Player A goes back and continues camping. This isn't good at all.

On the second hand, taking points for equipping ranged? Why? :o I see the thing you want to prevent by this, but it is bad imo.


Anyway I like the idea, just not in the way you made it ;) It is too abusable atm.
This is exactly why I need it tested! :)
Taking points for equipping ranged units was perhaps pretty bad idea when I think of it. But I would stay with higher penalty for losing ranged. Perhaps it will prove inefficient and will be removed. So far, majority of MP games looked like this: awful amount crossbowmen + some cannonfodder (a.k.a. lance carriers). This way, I wanted to force some tactics like: I must protect archers at all costs, I need pikemen to counter flanking from horsemen. etc. perhaps it is not that much good idea.

As for camping: If someone will keep camping, he will be losing points (or to be precise, enemy will gain them). The amount of points is yet to be determined by testing (also boosted amount of weapons). I believe that sufficient amount of points will persuade campers to sally forth, or they will lose thanks to the elimination timer.

Thanks for your thoughts on it :)
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The Duke

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Post 13 Jul 2013, 21:31

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

the ellimination time and the other one must be set dam correctly to let this work but if they are it will be funky:P
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Omigoshe

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Post 15 Jul 2013, 10:35

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

I just played a game with Duke. It was a really cool map! A kind of new mode (24/7 incoming weapons and recruits), I really loved it. It seems hard to understand at first, but once you get the point of the map, it's really fun.

Please download the map so we can try test it with more people instead of 1v1

- fun coefficient :
- effectiveness of anti ranged-heavy army policy
- timer values. Are they crazy low? Or damn too long? Whatever?
- weapon and recruit rations. Are weapons and recruit scarce in 4vs4? Are weapons and recruits arriving too fast when there is one player in team? (remember, weapons won't get stuck in storehouse, serfs are there mostly for effect)
- is number of starting weapons appropriate?
- are stockpiling limits a hindrance? (max 50 weapons per type, 100 per armour, 50 recruits at the moment)
- anything really...
- comments on how awful it looks, if applicable, are also welcome, provided there is some advice how to remedy the situation
- It was fun, even for 1v1, a new mode in battle I like it.
- I don't think the timers were too long or too short. Maybe in games with more people it needs to be tested. Not too long for 1v1
- I dont think this was a big problem, for me it went smooth.
- Can't remember, but it was low, so yes
- Hm no idea.
- ..
- I liked it, the map can get some tweaking, but you did a really good job on the area, the hills, grass + snow...
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Duke Valennius

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Post 15 Jul 2013, 11:06

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

- It was fun, even for 1v1, a new mode in battle I like it.
- I don't think the timers were too long or too short. Maybe in games with more people it needs to be tested. Not too long for 1v1
- I dont think this was a big problem, for me it went smooth.
- Can't remember, but it was low, so yes
- Hm no idea.
- ..
- I liked it, the map can get some tweaking, but you did a really good job on the area, the hills, grass + snow...
Thank you for testing and feedback!
Weapons at start are 10 in barracks and 30 in storehouse (armours double). This was really aimed at 4vs4 where new recruits and weapons arrive slower (so they would be carried from storehouse, while popping of new weapons would be slow). In 1vs1 serfs didn't even moved them all. Perhaps having more weapons in barracks and less in storehouse at start in games with less players would help? (However, this could result in immediate defeat for less skilled player; like me! :D )
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WollongongWolf

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Post 15 Jul 2013, 22:03

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Well that went better then expected, my fortress lived! Still eliminated first, but uhm well.
Feedback:
The description is pointless. I'm fighting don't have time to read. Though it is not the most ideal way, the map description is the best option I think, and perhaps a readme in addition. In the end, we are more pointless waiting, so better use that time for the rules.
Next thing I bumped into (almost literally) where the mountains. They all looked same-ish to me, but some where walkable some weren't. Perhaps it's something to get used to (I guess so :P) but I wasn't/ain't a big fan of it. May I suggest cliffs from say gold or so?
Also the towers, ok it prevents camping, but they are basically just meat and in my way. (I should have destroyed a few, ok nvm this point).
Points balance seemed fine, since i spammed bows/xbows and lost fast xD.

So far critics, it remains a fun map to play! (once you get used to it)
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Shadaoe

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Post 15 Jul 2013, 22:52

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Here are my thoughts after testing the map in 4v4 :
-That's a really great concept, served by a nice script
-The elimination time should be lowered, I'd suggest 1 or 2 minuts less but as you said you'll take an average of feedbacks, which is great

My suggestions on terrain : add more objects so we see more "life" in the terrain, and make some more visible "unwalkable" hills if possible.

On gameplay, that's really fun, since we have to elaborate tactics, like doing a long siege to get point and avoid elimination or trying to keep a monstruous amount of soldiers alive to be able to fight back, even when it requires being sieged. I also like how it's risky to go for ranged units (as I experienced at the beginning :p). With a lowered elimination time to make it a bit faster-paced, I'm sure you can get an even better result. It was a fun fighting map to play, and it's great to have fighting maps that last longer and involve more large-scale strategies.

You did a nice job, really, and I think the main point to improve is terrain (more variations, some transitions are a bit too square and other minor things), since the script seems pretty good already, and apart for that problem where a leaving player makes his teammates have less weapons, I don't see any issue.
Good luck with your other maps, you have something great to offer for the scripting competition ! (wether it is this map or another one).
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Duke Valennius

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 06:55

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Well that went better then expected, my fortress lived! Still eliminated first, but uhm well.
Feedback:
The description is pointless. I'm fighting don't have time to read. Though it is not the most ideal way, the map description is the best option I think, and perhaps a readme in addition. In the end, we are more pointless waiting, so better use that time for the rules.
Next thing I bumped into (almost literally) where the mountains. They all looked same-ish to me, but some where walkable some weren't. Perhaps it's something to get used to (I guess so :P) but I wasn't/ain't a big fan of it. May I suggest cliffs from say gold or so?
Also the towers, ok it prevents camping, but they are basically just meat and in my way. (I should have destroyed a few, ok nvm this point).
Points balance seemed fine, since i spammed bows/xbows and lost fast xD.

So far critics, it remains a fun map to play! (once you get used to it)
Well, my first reply disappeared somehow... so let's go again...

Yes, good point, description is now really only a babble, I'll move the exact rules there. They will stay in game if someone would like to check again something (not likely, but if you don't want to, you can just ignore them).

Mountain... it seemed to me, that perhaps only I can't distinguish them :D . I will paint non-walkable hills with some solid rocks to make it clear

Well, towers are there to prevent rushes, if whole other team decides to attack one poor fellow, it could be very frustrating, and turrets make that harder. (even if it is a valid tactic) Second reason for existence of towers if what you already discovered, to make camping harder ;) (by hindering player from sallying forth, which should make him think twice about camping behind towers. Anyway, I see from replay that you were pretty much left alone on your side, so there was no other options than hiding behind towers)

Thank you for testing and feedback!
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thunder

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 06:58

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Hey!
I didnt know whats happened in the test game, because was there mass fight:)
It was fun!

I just advice less horses to the game and more axes (maybe use three times larger horse giving speed to the store)
and plus 900points to destroy barracks;) (that is 100+900=1000points)
I had 40 recruits in the barrack but i cant trained out them because i didnt have more weapons. I think mass axes no problem into the game, because milities are crap some situation;)

The idea is cool and funny! Really cool tactic map.
t
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Duke Valennius

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 07:14

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Here are my thoughts after testing the map in 4v4 :
-That's a really great concept, served by a nice script
-The elimination time should be lowered, I'd suggest 1 or 2 minuts less but as you said you'll take an average of feedbacks, which is great

My suggestions on terrain : add more objects so we see more "life" in the terrain, and make some more visible "unwalkable" hills if possible.

On gameplay, that's really fun, since we have to elaborate tactics, like doing a long siege to get point and avoid elimination or trying to keep a monstruous amount of soldiers alive to be able to fight back, even when it requires being sieged. I also like how it's risky to go for ranged units (as I experienced at the beginning :p). With a lowered elimination time to make it a bit faster-paced, I'm sure you can get an even better result. It was a fun fighting map to play, and it's great to have fighting maps that last longer and involve more large-scale strategies.

You did a nice job, really, and I think the main point to improve is terrain (more variations, some transitions are a bit too square and other minor things), since the script seems pretty good already, and apart for that problem where a leaving player makes his teammates have less weapons, I don't see any issue.
Good luck with your other maps, you have something great to offer for the scripting competition ! (wether it is this map or another one).
Elimination timer will be lowered, even stalemate timer (which i don't remember falling below warning threshold, which is 3 minutes). I think no one noticed it, but there are longer timers at start. I mean, they will be also lowered, but perhaps shouldn't be longer than normal. It was meant to let enough time to get the action started. Have someone noticed that? Did it worked its purpose, or just added too much play time?

Yes, I'll paint non-walkable hills with rocks, as it seems to cause trouble. I'll try to improve the terrain, thank you for suggestion.

Thank you for testing and your feedback!
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Duke Valennius

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 07:38

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

Hey!
I didnt know whats happened in the test game, because was there mass fight:)
It was fun!

I just advice less horses to the game and more axes (maybe use three times larger horse giving speed to the store)
and plus 900points to destroy barracks;) (that is 100+900=1000points)
I had 40 recruits in the barrack but i cant trained out them because i didnt have more weapons. I think mass axes no problem into the game, because milities are crap some situation;)

The idea is cool and funny! Really cool tactic map.
t
I didn't see horses as big problem. I got flanked plenty of times with just 2 and had my archers slaughtered, which wasn't good for my, but was good for game. ;) However, if someone will come with same opinion, I will lower horse rate a bit (but 3x seems like a lot). You also get more points for killing mounted units, so your enemy should think twice about sacrificing them. Anyway, mounted units were a key element of medieval battles (as far as I know), and they contribute to lot of tactics.
About axes, that is a good point! I will definitely increase axe rate (but not the armour and shields, unless there would be demand for it from players). Mass militia can be interesting in desperate situations, though you can really lose many points with militia. But there are situations where it is good to have numbers of them.

About points for barracks. 1000 seems like a lot, but maybe I can increase it a bit (like 200 or 300). While defeat by destroying barracks is quite an achievement, I don't want to put too much point disadvantage on losing side, so they wouldn't give up hope of catching up.

Thank you for testing and your feedback!
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WollongongWolf

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 11:29

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

The first time spawns were fine to me, to get the action going. But afterwards I would agree to get a minute or 2 off.

And about the towers, I understand your point, think I just hate them in general (they are either just annoying meatballs or almost useless)
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thunder

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Post 16 Jul 2013, 11:42

Re: Stalemate Tournament - scripted fighting map testing

If use the same rate to the horses as the shields, then everybody will always train horses. This is why i advice larger time rate to the horses. Missed the mass Axes and swords. But possible it is subjective;)
1000points were just a joke, because seemed to me impossible to destroy a barrack. But need more testing.
I wish the bests!

Good job!
t

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