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How to build rush!

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dicsoupcan

Moorbach's Guard

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Post 29 Dec 2012, 13:47

Re: How to build rush!

for the iron smelter i always use 1:1 and that works fine for me. i only use a little bit more coal mines though.
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Krom

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KaM Remake Developer

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Post 29 Dec 2012, 16:04

Re: How to build rush!

There's an easy way to test by making a test map in MapEd (make 2 players and let one have 1:1 and other 2:1 and see if there's a difference)
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
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batoonike

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Post 30 Dec 2012, 13:10

Re: How to build rush!

Lewin wrote:I plan to watch this video and write a detailed reply here later, but for now I'd just like to clear something up:

batoonike wrote:They have changed the ratios from when I last tested it. It was something like a year or so ago. Now 1:1 ratio of mines and smelters still results in a slight unemployment of the smelter but nothing nearly as bad as it used to be. So 3:3 seems reasonably enough. But it used to be 2:1 or 3:1, trust me ;)

We have never changed the production rates of houses in the KaM Remake, they have always been the same as the original game. If you don't believe me test it in TSK/TPR or an old version of the Remake. I remember back in TSK I found that 1-2 iron mine supplied 1 iron smelter, I think the ratio has always been approximately 1:1 or maybe 2:1.


Actually I do believe you have not chanded production rates. But some other changes might have resulted in change of ratios. Or my old tests were just biased. Whatever, it seems that the correct ratio for now is somewhere near 1:1 and nothing else matters really.
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Bo_

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Knight

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Post 30 Dec 2012, 14:47

Re: How to build rush!

Iron mine produces 1.32 iron/min.
Iron smelter can consume up to 1.82 iron/min.
This means that you need 1.38 iron mines/iron smelter, so 3 iron smelters is indeed enough for 4 iron mines.
You should calculate like this: [amount of iron mines]*1.32/1.82 = amount of iron smelter needed. Always round upwards for optimal production.

A loc with 7 iron mines: 7*1.32/1.82 = 5.08 so 6 iron smelters.
Why not 5? Because every minute 0.08 iron won't be used otherwise.
A loc with 2 iron mines: 2*1.32/1.82 = 1.45 so 2 iron smelters.

Notice that this is a production where:
1: you have enough serfs
2: you have enough coal
3: you have enough food
Kick fast, think Bo.
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EDMatt

Knight

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Joined: 08 Jul 2012, 00:43

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 30 Dec 2012, 17:16

Re: How to build rush!

mr Bo wrote:Iron mine produces 1.32 iron/min.
Iron smelter can consume up to 1.82 iron/min.
This means that you need 1.38 iron mines/iron smelter, so 3 iron smelters is indeed enough for 4 iron mines.
You should calculate like this: [amount of iron mines]*1.32/1.82 = amount of iron smelter needed. Always round upwards for optimal production.

A loc with 7 iron mines: 7*1.32/1.82 = 5.08 so 6 iron smelters.
Why not 5? Because every minute 0.08 iron won't be used otherwise.
A loc with 2 iron mines: 2*1.32/1.82 = 1.45 so 2 iron smelters.

Notice that this is a production where:
1: you have enough serfs
2: you have enough coal
3: you have enough food

You forgot to mention distance in your formula, since it has the biggest impact on your production.
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Bo_

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Knight

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Post 30 Dec 2012, 18:43

Re: How to build rush!

EDMatt wrote:You forgot to mention distance in your formula, since it has the biggest impact on your production.

mr Bo wrote:Notice that this is a production where:
1: you have enough serfs
2: you have enough coal
3: you have enough food


If you have enough serfs it doesn't matter, except if the distance is so big that it takes the serfs longer to bring 1 iron than for the iron smelter to melt 5 iron.

Oh no you're right, I forgot to calculate distance to the inn, because there's a difference in production when your iron smelter lives next to the inn or 100000 tiles away. Good job Matt.
Kick fast, think Bo.
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EDMatt

Knight

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Post 31 Dec 2012, 02:25

Re: How to build rush!

mr Bo wrote:
EDMatt wrote:You forgot to mention distance in your formula, since it has the biggest impact on your production.

mr Bo wrote:Notice that this is a production where:
1: you have enough serfs
2: you have enough coal
3: you have enough food


If you have enough serfs it doesn't matter, except if the distance is so big that it takes the serfs longer to bring 1 iron than for the iron smelter to melt 5 iron.

Oh no you're right, I forgot to calculate distance to the inn, because there's a difference in production when your iron smelter lives next to the inn or 100000 tiles away. Good job Matt.

That is not what I mean, 50 tiles is enough to make your calculations false. and often enough you see people having their production further than that .
If distance was not a valid factor, everyones village would work exactly the same.
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Bo_

User avatar

Knight

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Location: Belgium

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Post 31 Dec 2012, 11:49

Re: How to build rush!

50 tiles is enough IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SERFS, YES.
When a smithy is working, it's working right?
What's the difference between a smithy working ALL THE TIME close to iron smelter/coal and an other smithy who's also working ALL THE TIME, but 50 tiles away?

The only difference is that the production close to coal/iron will start to produce faster,
but once both buildings start producing the production is the same, where distance to the inn is the only factor.

Watch the reply in the attachment, 5 hours in 300 speed, look into the barracks then ask pizza why I'm wrong again.

Why doesn't everyone's village work the same?
1. Not enough serfs. (and that's where distance matters, amount of serfs needed)
2. Not enough food, not enough inns, causing hungry citizens unable to work.
3. No balance between amount of buildings. (ex: 1 woodcutter for 4 sawmills and 3 woodcutters for 1 sawmill)
4. Farms/woodcutters not working efficiently (not enough space for woodcutters, not enough tiles for farms, tiles too far away...)
5. Bad roadwork, creating traffic jams so big that your serfs are unable to supply the buildings.

Of course, when your buildings are so far away from each other that your citizen's produce faster than the serfs deliver, then it will affect your production.
Depending on how fast that building consumes affects the distance allowed between that building and his supplier and client.
When barracks/storehouse are the client, the distance between them doesn't matter.
Since we're talking about a logic town, where you don't have your sawmills on the very right and your weapon workshops on the very left,
delivery time doesn't influence your production.
If you still don't agree I'll make you a graph for each building at which point distance starts to influence your production.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Kick fast, think Bo.
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sado1

User avatar

Moorbach's Guard

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Joined: 21 May 2012, 19:13

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Post 31 Dec 2012, 17:00

Re: How to build rush!

Bo just wants to say that the calculations are not distance-dependant much, because long distance doesn't mean you need more iron mines. You need more serfs and time. Having more mines would sort-of workaround it since the serfs would have a bigger chance of delivering iron more often but that's not the point. If you have long distance between buildings, it is your own fault that you suck and can't make a proper city. Why Bo should bother about that fact in his calculations?
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pawel95

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Castle Guard Swordsman

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Post 21 Jan 2013, 16:49

Re: How to build rush!

I think Mr. Bo you must give me a KaM extra lesson about this topic :D :
mr Bo wrote:2. Not enough food, not enough inns, causing hungry citizens unable to work.
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EDMatt

Knight

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Post 28 Jan 2013, 13:59

Re: How to build rush!

pawel95 wrote:I think Mr. Bo you must give me a KaM extra lesson about this topic :D :
mr Bo wrote:2. Not enough food, not enough inns, causing hungry citizens unable to work.

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Roses are red
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I.G. is blessed
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