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Food, and general build order problem

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sado1

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Post 12 Dec 2012, 22:07

Food, and general build order problem

I noticed that my build order is not perfect, especially the food part. First, let me tell you how my cities are built nowadays:
-school, inn, 4 quarries, woodcutter spam and 2 sawmills
-gold, not too late, not too early, eventually I have 2 goldsmelters (I make third one and block gold in storehouse, when my wood production stabilizes) - up to this point 26 serfs and 18-20 builders
-while making gold I usually place 1st farm (sometimes two), another school, fisher hut
-now wood production has probably stabilized a bit... edit: good time to make additional 1-2 stonemasons
-I go for iron+coal to start making weapons
-barracks built in parallel with first smithies
-I build a mill as soon as I have corn (hard to say when exactly it happens, but I think it's somewhere towards the end of making iron buildings), usually that's when I make additional farms and (if wood permits, which is usually the case) 2-3 vineyards
-finalizing iron (2nd smithies etc.) which happens near 45-50th minute, and later just towers, wood weapon makers, additional sawmills (that may be a mistake, but 2 sawmills seem to be surprisingly capable for just building a city - seeing as I start making axes quite late...), sometimes when I have 2 mills and 4-5 vineyards at this point, I make a stable... in no particular order. I try to end with 30-35 builders and 80-90 serfs.

As you can see, there's no leather involved, I decided few days ago to play iron only to have a chance of making decent food production. And it kind of works, but I need 2 mills and 4-5 vineyards (ofc some fishermen before, and a second Inn somewhere near pt) at peacetime to barely have food, to be safe I need to make 1 more mill and a few vineyards after pt. I usually make 15-20 iron troops at the very start, but the situation improves quite quickly thanks to double smithies. The problem is, it can be done better. Better players easily outproduce me in every single aspect of the game - food, troops, general economy etc. I feel I improved my city much already, but I'm still miles from the actual solution. I need to make mills (which makes Mulberry laugh at me xD) because I'm too afraid of going sausage and wasting time early for additional farms. Maybe I just don't know when it's the perfect time to make them. The question is: do you see any obvious mistakes in my build order? Do you have any advices? I'm mainly interested in becoming more efficient, and not having to bother about food anymore. Leather would be a nice thing to have too.
Last edited by sado1 on 12 Dec 2012, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Bence791

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Post 12 Dec 2012, 22:26

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Nearly everything seems nice... But: to build fast enough, you have to have 5-6 stonemasons, unless you want your workers to be slowed down of stone shortage. And you know, by the time big boom arrives, you must already have built a 3rd (or even 4th) sawmill for fast wood production. Then, when you have the first sawmill up, always 2 (at least, but not more, than 4) farms have to be placed for some fast corn for piggies. Then, when 4th grain growth step has come, build a fast pigfarm (or 2), and immediately a butchery and a tannery... after them, set up iron, wooden weapon and leather vest production, and also expand to more farms. Then build 3-4 vineyards, and as many towers around, as you can. 30-30 xbows and lancers are possible this way, but I think you know that shielded units are far better now... 85 serfs and 30-35 builders are enough anyway. And the last thing: I wanna play with you tomorrow to see how you are doing in Pt. ;P
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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sado1

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Post 12 Dec 2012, 23:08

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Yeah I just forgot to write about additional quarries, I make 5th/6th after gold. Let's hope I'll have time tomorrow (probably ~13-14 CET, if at all...)
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dicsoupcan

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 11:02

Re: Food, and general build order problem

you need a flexible build order, not a set build order. in some situations you might want to have a faster farm, while in other occasions you have to rush iron more (for example if it is far away). mostly i start off with school -> inn (assuming woodcutter and stonemason is not unlocked) -> 4 stonemasons -> 4 -7 woodcutters -> 1-2 sawmills (mor often then not 2) -> 5th stonemason + farm + 2 gold and 2 coal. whatever happens then varies but mostly it is one or 2 iron mines, i do tend to keep building farms 1 by 1 along the way though.

as for workers, if i start with 3 builders and 4 serfs (what seems to be in most cases) i hire builder -> serf -> builder -> serf -> 5 builders -> 6 serfs ( because you need a lot of serfs to bring stuff to the stonemasons, assuming you already made the roads for it while building inn, 12 serfs bring it a bit faster then 10) -> 4 stonemasons -> 4 builders and so on untill i have 25 serds and 20 labourers when i get my gold production.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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The Dark Lord

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 14:09

Re: Food, and general build order problem

I won't be writing my entire build because it is different every time and it's not that good anyway; just this: I think it's important to make 1-2 farms before your gold production (unless you start with little gold).
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Ben

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 18:41

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Really? I find myself wanting to get gold as soon as possible. If I run out of food, my extra gold should be able to replace the citizens that die...
But that isn't good for stats, costly for soldiers, and it makes you wait longer before you can make leather.
I used to spam this forum so much...
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dicsoupcan

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 18:49

Re: Food, and general build order problem

you can do both 1-2 farms and gold at the same time ben :D
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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sado1

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 20:22

Re: Food, and general build order problem

You usually need to build quite a long road for gold, if there's no better option, you can always make first farms somewhere there. Keep in mind though that might not be the best solution, you need place for 3 goldsmelters and 2 additional schools somewhere between your gold and coal.
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Bence791

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 20:58

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Really? I find myself wanting to get gold as soon as possible. If I run out of food, my extra gold should be able to replace the citizens that die...
While your citizens are starving, you can't replace them, but they stop working and your economy dies... That's the key thing. You MUSTN'T wait for your citizens to die and be able to retrain them, that costs way too much time. And as you surely know, time is precious. If you don't have any food (or you know your food production is not enough to feed your people), you can try mass militia+fast iron with some mills and vineyards.. And after pt you can easily change to leather, since you have some corn already. This seems to be the best tactic nowadays. I'd say let's play some games tomorrow or the day after that, but I won't be online during the 2 next days. Maybe just here on forum. Today I was starving for a while around pt's end, but 2 bakeries, 2 butchers and 5 vineyards stabilized the situation and they were enough :D Good luck on practising ;)
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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Da Revolution

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 21:16

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Bence. Three butchers, the key to success. Maybe with a vineyard.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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dicsoupcan

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 21:38

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Bence. Three butchers, the key to success. Maybe with a vineyard.
*cough* fishermen also*cough*
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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Bence791

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Post 13 Dec 2012, 21:56

Re: Food, and general build order problem

*cough* fishermen also*cough*
*cough* 6 *cough* Oppan Romek style
The Kamper is always taking my colour!

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Ben

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Post 14 Dec 2012, 16:09

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Well I'm not a very good player so I don't listen to my build order :P
I used to spam this forum so much...
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FransPhoenix

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Post 19 Dec 2012, 12:29

Re: Food, and general build order problem

Hi there. My first post here on this forum, so correct me if I make any mistakes. I really like this discussion, mainly because it focuses on the time lost when your town is hungry. I've decided to play a game (vs AI) and focus a lot on farms placement. Eventually, my town was split into 4 areas: 3 areas with corn and 1 with heavy wood. Why? Well, because it's a given thing that too many farmers working on the same field will be less efficient (I remember it can be as much as 20%). Using the production times from this forum, I combined 3 farms with 2 mills, 3 farms with 2 piggies and 4 farms with 1 piggy and 1 horse. I've added the replay: there was no pt, but I made it end after 67 minutes. Basically, my town had everything in supply, but although I had up to 90 serfs my iron production did not receive the required attention from them. Question: is it smart to split up your food production throughout town, because it always provides something to do for your serfs and hence it does not incline them to walk the further distances to iron (even if you have enough - but not too many - serfs). Any thoughts on this?
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batoonike

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Post 23 Dec 2012, 12:34

Re: Food, and general build order problem

With 45 or 60 min peace time I normally complitely ignore food until I have both smithy types going with a lot of coal and iron. Or if Im trading or spamming militia then I also complitely ignore food for like.. almost forever, certainly until I near the end of peace time. The goal is to win the first battle which occures right at the end of peace time. Normally I wouldn't even trade food from market later on. This has been working out almost always, only times this doesn't work is when I mess up build order or when enemy does the same strategy and is just plain better at building up.

Then again, I played a few versions ago mostly. Maybe they have changed something that prevents ignoring food? If it's the same as always, the whole discussion about "what if the game get's so long and then everyone starves and in the long run and then later on..." becomes void since there will never be "the long run". You steamroll anyone who thinks there will be a long run. Also, avoid maps that are good for defence ;)

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