Map Database  •  FAQ  •  RSS  •  Register  •  Login

Prototype Units in Knight's Province

<<

Lord Dan

User avatar

Recruit

Posts: 32

Joined: 07 Dec 2015, 07:29

Location: Perth, Australia. Or Taiwan.

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 24 Nov 2016, 13:11

Prototype Units in Knight's Province

prototype units for Knight's Province.png



For the sake of discussion - these are IDEAS ONLY (and please forgive the imperfect image design :))

But I've put my best efforts into developing an expansion of units that:
1. adds strategy and depth to the gameplay
, while even more importantly,
2. keeping the spirit of KAMs battles, units and mainly expanding on them.

An overview of the new units:
We have:
1. A tank - primarily arrow resistant infantry - slowest unit.
2. A Pikeman who has a range of 2 - he forms lines to support infantry from second rank, and helps to counter cavalry "charges".
3. The former Bowman is split into Archers and Longbowmen - a small difference in range only, small difference in cost. Big functional difference!
4. Dragoon - mounted crossbowman with shorter range, but fast, and can also fight melee! Versatile but expensive!
5. Three units from the old barbarian:
- Bezerker - Glass cannon! Deploy accordingly.
- Barbarian - Reasonably priced low defense, strong attack unit.
- Warrior - Ultimate god unit - extremely expensive but having a few allows use at key tactical points. Also adds the excitement of a super unit to be feared.

An overview of my design strategy before further unit explanation:
I wanted to establish:
A. Expansion of KAM units - keeping all the old strategies+tactics, but adding more.


B. Keeping the classic spirit of sword, shield and bow badges that illustrate relative strengths of units –
see each unit's image.

C. Recipes for units - need to have:
1. Tech Tiers, or equivalent - there would be about 4 levels of units, but based on ingredients there would be: unarmored, leather armor, light cav, iron armor, extra iron armor, and special units - making about 6 Tech Tiers. (Useful for campaigns etc)
2. A variety of uses for each ingredient – more versatility and makes things more interesting. Eg. Pikes and Crossbows can be used in more than one recipe.
3. To have simple recipes – like KAM. But also have more sophisticated recipes. (as long as asking the player to do some maths in his head to calculate eg. what he needs to make 5 Halberdiers and 5 Pikemen, isn’t too much – this should be fun hopefully!)

D. Of course we need counters for each unit! Hard and soft counters preferably - I believe I have covered this both in unit options and relative affordability (1 kind of unit can be cheaply countered by at least 1 other) This of course will be worked on!

E. Very carefully add small, new abilities to ranged and cavalry units – flee and charge+stun. Subject to testing for fairness and tweaking.

F. Add quite weak opening units for base defense – Peacekeeper and Slingman.

G. Display effective unit costs at the bottom of my plan’s image, and balance them.

These are what I wanted to achieve by my design so far. Please be the judge at the end.


Now to run through the units abilities in short:

“Sprint” is simply Storm attack from KAM. Heavy units can’t do it.

“Extra Range” is the unique ability of Pikeman to attack someone 2 squares away (+1 range) as well as normal melee. But his attack isn’t that strong except against Cavalry.

“Flee” is like reverse Storm attack. Rear ranks of archers will turn and flee backward a certain distance. It works much better in smaller formations than bigger formations (like real life). Helps gets them back a bit in emergency, but isn’t going to keep them functioning very well. In big formations, it will help save some archers, whereas the ones at the front won’t get away if there’s too many men behind them.

“Fast” simply refers to mounted units – they move faster.

“Charge+Stun” is only for Light Cavalry and Knights – it is like Storm attack but if they hit a non-horse unit they will stun him for 2-3 seconds. Maybe, halve his defense while stunned. It is to illustrate real life cavalry charges and their strategy. This would need balancing.


Let’s run through each unit in brief :)

Infantry units:

Peacekeeper
Town Guard.
Essentially a Militia – but the Axe now costs 1 wood instead of 2, so he’s cheaper.
Function: Base defense early, later – support, flanking.
Can sprint.
Good vs Flankable units
Weak vs Cavalry, Ranged units

Reservist
Support troops.
Essentially an Axe Fighter – cheaper than before because axe cheaper.
Function: Good in large numbers – same attack as Militia, a lot harder to kill. Too many of them will cost a lot to feed. Main army force, or support of main army. Decent arrow resistance.
Can sprint.
Good vs Spear units, light Archer force
Weak vs Cavalry, Heavy infantry, Heavy archers

Footman
Essentially a Sword Fighter – same cost as before. Medium cost overall.
Function: Professional soldier. Centre of your force. But too expensive to spam. Stronger defense than attack, quite arrow resistant. Can hold the line, can push through the centre, including ability to sprint.
Can sprint.
Good vs Archers, Spear units, light infantry
Weak vs Cavalry, being flanked

Man at Arms
A knight on foot – full plate armor, sword and shield.
Function: Maximum armor for arrow resistance. Also resistant to weak attacks. Not invincible but can survive 2-3x as many arrows as a Footman (50-60?). Frontline troops for pushing forward. Same attack as Footman – not that powerful alone, so he needs support! Too expensive to use more than you need!
Cannot sprint!
Good vs Archers, Crossbowmen
Weak vs Flanking, Cavalry

Polearm infantry:

Spearman
A peasant with a spear, just like the Rebel.
Function: Base defense, can handle scouts and light cavalry harass. Early scouting unit. Costs more than Peacekeeper as a spear costs 2x an axe, but more useful.
Can sprint.
Good vs Scouting, Base harass
Weak vs all infantry, ranged units

Lancer
Just like Lance Carrier.
Function: Standard anti-cavalry, army support. His 1 armor will make him much better than Spearmen, but requires more tech (jerkin) to build. Now he can sprint! (because his weapon isn’t too long or heavy)
Can sprint.
Good vs Cavalry
Weak vs Heavy infantry, heavy arrow fire, flanking

Pikeman
New unit!
Function: Works like the Lancer - same attack but longer range (needing 2 spears for this!), heavier (iron) armor. Costs more than Lancer. Use him either in the frontline against cavalry, in large armies, or in second row behind strong units. Cannot sprint, because his weapon is too unwieldy! Has tendency to appear overpowered if used well. (because he can attack without being attacked! And greatly increase damage from your frontline!) If not used well, he isn’t cost efficient!
Cannot sprint!
Good vs Enemy centre or frontline, cavalry and cavalry charges.
Weak vs Infantry, flanking.

Halberdier
Like a mix of Sword Fighter and old Pikeman.
Function: Strong frontline, general purpose/anti cavalry unit. Medium cost, good armor, normal attack. Not the most cost efficient, but multifunctional. Expensive armor cost, but good arrow resistance.
Cannot sprint!
Good vs Light infantry, archers, cavalry.
Weak vs Heavy infantry, mass archers, flanking

Ranged units:

Slingman
Same as Rogue. But maybe we can tweak his attack because its slow and messy in KAM.
Function: Emergency base defense/ranged unit. Potential to harass undefended enemies. Cheap, but inefficient once archer production begins, unless you have a lot of stone, gold and food.
Can flee backwards.
Good vs Base harass, weak infantry
Weak vs everything else.

Archer
Same as old Bowman, but reduced range about 20%.
Function: Anti infantry force. Cheap to produce en masse. Decent range, but needs protection. Outranged by better Longbowmen and Crossbowmen, but you can produce 40% more of them than Longbowmen for the same cost! Better rate of fire than Crossbowmen! Vulnerable to cavalry or charges.
Can flee backwards.
Good vs Light-Medium infantry, buildings
Weak vs Heavy armor units, fast units

Longbowman
Same as old Bowman, but costs more and can now flee.
Function: Anti infantry force. More functional with longest range and highest rate of fire (same as Archer), but not extremely cheap. Often good to mix with archers and keep safer at the back. Valuable for archery duels and base defense. Better at fighting cavalry because of range. They require 2 bows since their weapon is bigger and better.
Can flee backwards.
Good vs Archers, Light-Medium infantry, buildings, light cavalry
Weak vs Crossbowmen, Heavy infantry or Knights

Crossbowman
Same as old Crossbowman. Will be cheaper, relatively.
Function: Anti infantry force, and can overpower other ranged units with their burst damage and better armor. Slower rate of fire than other ranged, however. Cheaper than the other heavier units, but still requires iron. Powerful en masse and if protected.
Good vs Infantry, cheaper ranged units
Weak vs Cavalry, fast units or flanking

Mounted units:

Scout
Same as old vagabond. He can now sprint.
Function: He is for scouting and harass later in the game. Cheap - just an axe on a horse. Very weak, so don't waste his horse in battle - get a small amount of them for scouting. Cannot be stunned, unlike infantry.
Can sprint.
Good vs weak infantry except spears, slow units, base buildings
Weak vs everything else.

Light cavalry
Same as old scout. Now he can charge and stun infantry.
Function: Cheap apart from his horse. In large groups can stun enemies to lead the attack. Fast for flanking and flank protection, but damage is not very high. Decent archer resistance. Ok for scouting. Cannot be stunned by other cavalry.
Can charge and stun.
Cannot be stunned.
Good vs Infantry, ranged units
Weak vs Spear units, knights.

Dragoon
Mounted crossbowman with shorter range, medium Melee unit.
Function: Versatility at a price. Can shoot 3/4 as far as archers and 6/10 as far as longbows. So he is outclassed by them. He also costs double a crossbowmen, and does half as much damage. But he can move quick to damage infantry with light crossbows and get away. Harass as well as avoid danger, reinforce key points. So he can be countered by ranged units or spears, but can also defeat vulnerable units with light melee attack. He can also harass light cavalry and knights!
Can sprint but not stun!
Cannot be stunned.
Strong vs infantry, cavalry.
Weak vs protected ranged units, spear units.

Knight
Heavy cavalry, same as the old knight. Can now charge and stun.
Function: Running down the enemy. Charging the enemy body, stunning them for your attack. Good arrow resistance since they cost extra armor, but also cost a lance (spear) to strike, and a sword to fight with. They also need an extra recruit, as they require a squire to serve them (who doesn’t appear anywhere). Knights are feared by all ranged units except massed crossbowmen. They can flank and beat everything but halberdiers, however they cost a lot.
Can charge and stun.
Cannot be stunned.
Strong vs infantry, ranged units, anything they can flank.
Weak vs massed spear units or crossbowmen.

Special Units:

Bezerker
Glass cannon as mentioned - massive attack, no defense.
Function: Flanking or killing undefended targets. Only useful on the flank in battle, not effective in the main body. He would be killed by arrows or prepared enemy here. Useful for making the enemy reform his positions against their threat on weak points. You can also use Bezerkers as a lure. If they can flank to side or rear of enemy they can annihilate weaker targets. Not the cheapest, but not an expensive unit. 2 swords is the main cost.
Can sprint.
Strong vs anything undefended or that can be flanked, light infantry.
Weak vs ranged units, massed infantry, cavalry, heavy infantry.

Barbarian
Much like the old barbarian.
Function: Bit less attack and bit more defense skill than the Bezerker. He costs mainly gold but has the good sense to take a leather jerkin and parry! He goes well with the main body of the army, and works similar to other medium infantry with extra attack power. Mixed with other troops he won't take so many arrows, but he's similarly weak against cavalry. He is good on the flanks. Overall fairly average cost unit.
Can sprint.
Good vs Infantry, including spears
Weak vs Cavalry, massed ranged units

Warrior
The ultimate unit.
Function: Arrow resistant, very high damage, can charge and stun. But extremely expensive - 4 iron items and a massive 6 gold! Frontline unit who can break anything in his way, so your main body may follow on. Only cavalry has a good chance to kill him, even though he can't be stunned. He wields an iron shield in one hand and halberd in the other, smashing enemies with both.
Can charge and stun
Cannot be stunned
Strong vs Everything except cavalry.
Weak vs Cavalry and/or being flanked.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

sado1

User avatar

Moorbach's Guard

Posts: 1301

Joined: 21 May 2012, 19:13

KaM Skill Level: Skilled

Post 25 Nov 2016, 15:31

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

I'd rather base off the KaM system and try not to introduce too big changes. We also need to know how many units we'd like to have. There are some nice ideas like charge, flee; however it's impossible to foresee how players would (ab)use them. Flee could fix the problem of losing too many shooters after a lost fight, but it will be impossible to implement unless we somehow make them go back to the base without being able to be controlled (because of possible abuse where people will use flee like storm attack, to simply travel faster or catch someone. How do you tell the game where are the archers allowed to escape, when the player can always turn them around? etc.). Charge - I don't know, I'm afraid it will be way too easy to catch the enemy now.

One strength of the KaM system in my opinion is that it's quite easy to understand the differences between the units. It's very minimalistic, you've got three groups of soldiers sorted by technology (unarmoured, leather, iron; and 1 extra unit - Barbarian, and it's not even being used in eco games) and four when sorted by their served purpose (ranged, infantry, mounted, anti-mounted). Horses are faster, infantry can storm attack, and that's about the differences. Also, the system is relatively easy to balance, given how every unit has units it's obviously countering and countered by (rock-paper-scissors-like system). It's hard to imagine how a troop like dragoon will be countered, and what it's purpose in the system will be.

The idea I had for the new game would basically be a copy of the current system, but with the "weight" moved towards weaker units. Unarmored should be similar (regarding their power) to KaM's leather, leather should be like KaM's iron, and iron should be very powerful but impossible to train a high number of it. There might be place for something similar to siege weapons here, too.
<<

Lord Dan

User avatar

Recruit

Posts: 32

Joined: 07 Dec 2015, 07:29

Location: Perth, Australia. Or Taiwan.

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 26 Nov 2016, 09:51

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

I agree with basically everything you said.

Minimum additions, maximum improvement.

I wanted to add a 4th tier, at the same time I've split functions a little bit while keeping units in their 'class'. Makes them more versatile and interesting, but they still serve their class function. Also more realistic based on history.
As you said is important - it will remain obvious which class each unit belongs to.

Flee applies to ranged units that won't engage and lose control (except heavy xbowmen). It's an OPTIONAL addition at this point to ranged units that won't work unless you arrange your forces safely, and even then isn't always better then marching backwards in the normal way. But it's a realistic speed boost. Would need balancing of course.
Ideally they would run one rank at a time like storm attack - they won't all turn and run in perfect formation coz that would be overpowered.

Charge and stun is optional. Without stun it's just a storm attack for cavalry. Make the speed whatever is fair.
Also you could required them to be formed up with a certain distance from target required, to make it harder to perform and easier to counter.
It's very optional details at this point.

Dragons are versatile at a price. They are strong vs slow units, or to harass base/infantry. They won't do well against ranged units. They are like a scout that can shoot 60% of longbow/crossbow range but cost way more.

I like your last paragraph. It matches the general direction I want to take the game in.
<<

Wordsmith

User avatar

Peasant

Posts: 3

Joined: 27 Feb 2017, 15:37

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 27 Feb 2017, 16:09

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

Hi new here. Used to play KaM, found this and wanted to contribute but only after I had beaten the AI. Which I did.

I do not like this idea at all. If I understand correctly these are supposed to act like superunits. I don't think they add depth at all, in fact I think it makes gameplay very predictable. Dawn of War II, Men of War: Assault Squad II and Company of Heroes had superunits for example, and while in the CoH and MoW they were beatable in Dawn of War II they often meant game over. I personally prefer games that make comebacks still doable even if you are slower. It also makes the game predictable because some players will go straight for these units. It became very predictable that players in CoH would go for such units.

Next, I do not feel the units you described fit into the medieval theme.

I would personally prefer Knight's Province to focus on innovative gameplay mechanics and thematic charm instead of a large diversity of units. I remember when I was younger I always wanted to see new units, even though some added nothing but additional aesthetics to the game. If Knight's Province adds a few units I hope it will stay with a few units, add well to the medieval theme and at more to the game instead of adding them for aesthetic reasons.

A minimalistic roster of units makes things easier for the player and to balance. Though one thing that I do really dislike is a very rigid rock-paper-scissors. I am not aware how the mechanics are right now, or how they are exactly in the original KaM but only hard counters as opposed to mainly soft counters is not something I am fond of. Spearmen being a hard counter to cavalry makes all sense, but when we have spearmen vs sword fighters perhaps sword fighters should be more of a soft counter - if that works well for gameplay.
Opinions differ on this and I consider myself more of a casual gamer, as I've come across more experienced gamers of certain strategy games who are very fond of hard counters and rigid rock-paper-scissors mechanics.
<<

Krom

User avatar

KaM Remake Developer

Posts: 3156

Joined: 09 May 2006, 22:00

Location: Russia

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 27 Feb 2017, 16:21

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

Hello Wordsmith and welcome to the forum!

I'd like to make KP battle system a little more clear, by adding visible hitpoints and units stats, so that player could see more and guess less. Not sure how this will work out in the end, but for now direction is so.
Warriors roster will likely stay as now, with minimal changes - I like to have 2 tiers and rock-paper-scissors units. Also looking forward to siege machines.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
<<

Wordsmith

User avatar

Peasant

Posts: 3

Joined: 27 Feb 2017, 15:37

KaM Skill Level: Fair

Post 27 Feb 2017, 20:20

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

Wordsmith wrote:Next, I do not feel the units you described fit into the medieval theme.

Never mind this. I see dragoon and tank mean different things. The dragoon is simply a horseman with crossbow and the tank a man at arms. I admit to skimming most of it.
Krom wrote:I'd like to make KP battle system a little more clear, by adding visible hitpoints and units stats, so that player could see more and guess less. Not sure how this will work out in the end, but for now direction is so.
Warriors roster will likely stay as now, with minimal changes - I like to have 2 tiers and rock-paper-scissors units. Also looking forward to siege machines.

Sounds good. I think I like the addition of another building for soldiers. Hope you won't make the rock-papers-scissors not too rigid but it is up to you.

Do really wish the siege engines will (eventually) have units manning it, hell you could even give it limited ammo and making it necessary to supply it arrows or stones.
The latter is just an idea.
<<

Lord Dan

User avatar

Recruit

Posts: 32

Joined: 07 Dec 2015, 07:29

Location: Perth, Australia. Or Taiwan.

KaM Skill Level: Expert

Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:32

Re: Prototype Units in Knight's Province

Sorry for the very late reply.

The more powerful units are extremely more expensive. They won't end the game, unless they are the solution for the terrain on which you will fight.
Adding more tiers isn't just for fun - if you mass one unit type a decent player will easily build something else to beat you with, however if you build one kind of unit/tier it will be more or less successful than other tiers depending on where you fight and how much food you have.

It's really taking the current tier and Rock Paper Scissors elements to the next level. Including the importance of food/base production and fighting according to the terrain, like choke points, distances, even elevation!

Return to Knights Province Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests