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Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

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Krom

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Post 09 May 2015, 12:15

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

@TDL: So your suggestion is a "game like KaM but with RPG element".

There are dynamic scripts which we will certainly expand. That mainly affects SP though. As we can see KMR is mainly an MP game.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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RandomLyrics

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Post 09 May 2015, 12:30

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

"game like KaM but with RPG element" sounds great :>
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sado1

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Post 10 May 2015, 10:17

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

Personally, the only two things that I have a problem with KaM (Remake multiplayer) in general are.
#1 The fact that the games take too much time.
#2 The game isn't as popular as I wish it was. Which is a more-or-less direct consequence of #1.
My selfish reason for that is, I love streaming games, and it's much more fun to stream for more people than 10. I believe the all-time record for KaM streaming was something like 40, and I don't know if it wasn't simply because the streamer was don artie (who is one of the top players in a very popular game, so he has a decent amount of followers on Twitch). The first 30 minutes of the game, nothing happens, and I have to talk all kinds of stuff just to not make the people quit before they can see any action. Which is especially hard when doing games with less than 8 players. It is usual to see the number of viewers spike at the start of the game, then after 30-40 minutes it's halfway lower.

I guess the numbers and popularity would go up if we invented some way to pack the KaM fun into a new game where peacetime isn't needed, 20 minutes are enough to have ~20 "leather" troops (for a Teamspeak player) and at 30 minutes (TS) people usually can produce iron. Maybe building and production should be faster to set up in short term, but spamming troops should be more difficult over time. I don't know.

I had this other idea to give players a huge amount of wood (and workers?) at start, but give them little to no trees (so they have to plant only at start) next to their bases. Or make the forests work more realistic - very long time of waiting for a tree to fall, but much more wood coming out of a tree. Maybe switch wooden planks to a pile of wood, and need 1 pile per building (2 for important buildings like barracks)?
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Soldado con espada

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Post 10 May 2015, 16:02

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

I agree that the main reason KaM doesn't have (hasn't had) many players is the really long time it requires to play a game! However, building and optimising my base has always been my favourite part of KaM, and the battle and destruction always meant that I was going to lose all I had done and I needed to start over in the next mission! (Single Player)

I am not a multiplayer player, so I wouldn't know what to say about that. Perhaps the possibility of a more "SimCity" like Single Player (depending on the mission) and a faster building Multiplayer would be ideal to please everyone. For example, give the possibility of not needing roads in MP games or reduce the time required for building.

So...
A German-style RTS with slow/economic-focus SP and fast/battle-focus MP.
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Krom

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Post 11 May 2015, 09:26

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

Most of the "quick MP" ideas can be tried out with dynamic scripting, so one of the KP goals will be to add more and better script events/states/actions.

Dunno, maybe KP should be "A German-style RTS, but mod-friendly". Do you know if any of similar games (except maybe Banished, which is) are extensively moddable?

There is another possibility, additionally to the scripting, there could be "mods" that alter the game (add new buildings, change production plans, etc). Problem with those that they will segment MP a lot, which is not very good for a small-players base KP might have at the start.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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RandomLyrics

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Post 11 May 2015, 13:01

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

Hmm imo theres only ~1% modding/mapping poeple of whole players cap. Lets say 200 players will play your game, only 5-10 persons will mod (new scritps, new models, new houses), for that amount of players it dosnt pay off and u just lose a lot of time.(its better to hire (for free) those people and make Expension). I would leave that way as it done in Kam Remake, all original units/house/etc base + your scripts. It will be better to do a Expansion like new units, new houses, new campaign, unocking in multiplayer too ( like it does in Warcraft 3 + Frozen Throne) or you could make popular DC with new units, new houses. But for me DC sounds shitty, better EXP :D
"Problem with those that they will segment MP a lot, which is not very good for a small-players base KP might have at the start." - I agree, better force players to focus on original game style (+ eventually some scripted maps), it will took around 0.5-1.0 year to stabilize players cap, im guessing. Then u can thinking about dividing, imo :D
"A German-style RTS, but mod-friendly"" - no one want to mod game where arent any players. ( except few :P )
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dicsoupcan

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Post 11 May 2015, 13:35

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

if you are looking for games that are easily modable , those tends to be the games with steam workshop compatibillity. civilization 5 is a turn based strategy with a load of mods. you also had half life which is the pioneer of modding since valve always allows easy modding for his games. you can get a lot of modmakers depending on how easy you make it, which shall create a modding community.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill
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zombie01

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Post 11 May 2015, 14:06

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

I don't think it will fit in with the KP theme, but all ideas should be considered before rejected.

Boats.
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Ben

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Post 11 May 2015, 17:29

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

Please stay on topic. Moved off topic to the KaM ideas topic. Thanks!
Liberté, Égalité, KaM
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Krom

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Post 11 May 2015, 20:05

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

Thank you Ben!
SA should be very high-level, some kind of ultimate idea that can be used to guide other smaller ideas.

I guess you are right about the modding, it should complement the otherwise good game.
Knights Province at: http://www.knightsprovince.com
KaM Remake at: http://www.kamremake.com
Original MBWR/WR2/AFC/FVR tools at: http://krom.reveur.de
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Wordsmith

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Post 27 Feb 2017, 17:09

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

So I recently discovered this game, and am in love because I feel it already improves on the old Knights and Merchants I used to play. That's what I wanted to fell first of all.

Now I was lurking here first, and when I saw this thread I thought it was about systems theory, so I was very excited as it is something I have interest in and am learning about - even tho so far I have a poor understanding of systems theory. So it isn’t about systems theory, but I feel it is a nice topic to talk about the game.

For me personally the only game that survived being interesting has been Seven Kingdoms: Ancient Adversaries. If I ever had taken hold of Total Annihilation, I think that game might’ve been another that survived. In the past I’ve played Age of Empires, Empire Earth and Lords of the Realm and a few demos. Total War sort of replaced Lords of the Realm. Other games like Age of Empires, Empire Earth but also for example Red Alert (1&2) ceased being interesting to me because I find neither the building stage nor the battle stages satisfying. Newer games like Company of Heroes (the original) and the Men of War series, but also Medieval Total War II do tactics much better. I feel dynamics appeal to me as to rigid games bore me.

I’ve tried to give the Age of Empires remake 0 A.D. a chance, besides it being neither satisfying in combat or building, the linear economy makes it boring to me (is it actually linear? Don't think it is exactly what I mean.). It makes the game predictable, which I find boring. I am not sure if it is actually linear but what I mean is that it lacks additional costs. With Knights and Merchants, an army has maintenance costs. Seven Kingdoms has this with armies too, but in terms of gold instead of food. What Knights and Merchants did good was the building and economy stage. I think Knights Province improves by adding additional storage buildings it makes it slightly more fluid and it adds another layer to the economy.

I am not sure about my own vision what the strange attractor for Knight's Province should be. As discussed here I think rpg elements could be fun. My own idea would be to add additional maintenance costs. In Seven Kingdoms buildings have maintenance costs, perhaps roads and buildings in Knight's Province could have this - but I cannot predict how this would work out, perhaps it would add nothing interesting to the game and only be annoying. Another idea is diminishing returns though I am unsure where to add this, maybe with mining of iron and gold. So that once a resource gets depleted it requires longer work to get the same amount of resource.

Everyone has their own visions about the game, including me, so my advice would be to experiment with small elements in the game, see if the players like it. I think there should be a highly experimental approach: small changes get introduced and see if people like it. The foundation of the game has already been tested tied-and-true, though I do think it is necessary to add additional mechanics. There should be a good balance between replayability and competitiveness, I personally think the latter can get in the way of replayability as I've come across players who want highly predictable, almost repetitive, games.

I would recommend to check out Seven Kingdoms: Ancient Adversaries as I feel certain features - but not all - might be interesting for Knight's Province. For example: something as simple as shield block for arrows. Or maybe experience for troops, but I would change it to experience 1 gained in a building, and experience 2 only gained in combat. The other strategy games I know of, I don't feel their features could suit to Knight's Province. But that may be my own bias towards Seven Kingdoms.

Lastly I would say that the atmosphere of Knights and Merchants was great, and that Knight's Province should do its best to recreate a medieval town atmosphere. The animations that KaM has really were charming. If Knight's Province needs some inspiration about the Medieval age I could perhaps help. One thing I feel the Knights and Merchants was missing were monks, but I have no idea how to implement those in the economy.

That's what I think as of now. Remember I have my own vision but I don't want to suggest, just bring up ideas for inspiration, it is up to the developers who do all the hard work to decide. I have no skin in the game.
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Lord Dan

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Post 04 Jun 2017, 05:46

Re: Knights Province: thoughts about Strange Attractor

"once a resource gets depleted it requires longer work to get the same amount of resource. "
That is an excellent idea that is both realistic and makes the game easier for balancing etc!
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