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Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

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Tiank

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Post 14 Oct 2016, 17:06

Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Idea is pretty simple. A script that adds 1 Leather Jacket for each Lance or Bow added into Barracks and Leather Jacket+Wooden Shield for each Horse. Now, trained Lance Carrier turns into Rebel, Bowman into Rogue and Scout into Vagabond (Axe Fighter will be blocked in Barracks). So, we will have Militia for cost of Axe+recruit, Rebel for cost of Lance+Recruit, Rogue for cost of Bow+recruit and Vagabond for cost of Horse+Axe+Recruit.

Such solution won't work on standard maps. For such costs there should be a dedicated map, designed in a way, that will slow down wood production in particular, so that it won't be possible to make just spam of wooden weapons. I think the map should have slow start, the old build order (School->Inn->Quarry->Cutter). Also, gold and at least one forest should be far from starting point and maybe not butcher nor swine farms allowed, so that player must focus on other food, no iron nor leather production, some trades blocked in market.

The goal should be to make around 15 Vagabonds, 30 Rogues and 30 Rebels/Militia in 60 PT setting (or maybe design it in a way that will allow lower PTs, needs testing...). Such army setup should allow pretty good strategic games. Troops with no armor die more easily, so player can't be reckless. That's why it should work best on 1x speed, which allows the most strategic gaming imo.

But before a map, there is a question - is it possible to make a script that works in that way?
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equalizer

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Post 14 Oct 2016, 20:30

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

There is already a map with Townhall script, map name is something with 'Mercenaries', made by Vovets1. Land of Mercenaries maybe ? However, such a scrips does exist :wink:
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Tiank

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Post 15 Oct 2016, 08:53

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

I've seen that map, but it feels too complicated. That's why I'm wondering if a simpler approach is possible.
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thunder

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Post 16 Oct 2016, 15:12

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Hi!
I agree.It could work well. I though also about it after I've seen the bonus script first time(2milities -1barb or something like this). The values would be very similar or the same:
1rouge -1leatherjacket+1recruit
1rebel -1lance+1RC
1vagabon -1horse+1axe+1RC
1Barbarian -1 sword+1armor+1RC (+1pike?) //low defence &high attack power with similar cost as like swordman.

There are usualy lot times when the players have only lance and recruits but no LJ to create lance or there are horse and axe but no shield and LJ...etc.

Implementing these units to the barrack makes sense.
-more various army at PT. larger size armies, but not sure better quality. (an example: usualy/average PT army ~10knight+15swordman+40bows or ~10knights+15swordman+40rouge+40rebel (this would need +40goldchests/recruits and maybe a 3rd shool also?) )
-abusing these units needs huge gold production which is the biggest disadvantage of this story. This could be issue on low gold maps like AtD or GC.
-short games(think on PT=30min) could be much more interesting.
-would be there some more new strategies.
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Tiank

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Post 16 Oct 2016, 15:27

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Thunder, I was mainly thinking about implementing such script on maps with ONLY TH units for now. What you wrote, about adding TH units to standard armies, wouldn't be possible in a way it is now (the script idea), since it adds extra LJ via scipt. That's why I wrote an example of map, how should it be designed. Also, Barbs seem to be OP (I'm talking about map with only TH units).

But again, first I'd like to know from a scripter, is it possible to make such script? :)
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thunder

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Post 12 Jan 2017, 20:32

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Done. MAybe in a very row form but an easy playable script.
I got a table about the strengh of unit from MrFU and i noticed this could not be imba and could get economicaly okay situtions also.
The prices and strenght nearly would matched well. So I checked 4-5scripts how coud it be and combinating them.
Easy to spam? Yes of course, but do not forget the gold production and that these units basicly doesnt have defence and defence bonus, only The halfbody guy with doubledaxe has one defence point. So i have milities feeling to training these units.

worry about:
-Rouge can shut a bit faster- but he is without leather jacket so can move faster and has zero defence which means one hit one death. ;)
-Rebel can hit huge vs mounted troops - Need huge mass from what is waste of gold as like in the militie case...I ve seen melting rebels vs knights (9 for 1 trade gg.).they are not really enough vs well armored tunits.
-Warrior - it can fit nicely. It has iron image. 2 swords+1armor. Has less defence and more attackpoints than swordman. But harder to make mass knights with mass warrior economicaly. Actually I would make warriors+some xbows+bows+scouts mostly if the cost be 2 swords+1armor.
-Vagabond- it has fun imo, waste horses of milites:D good for losing him at scout phase.

Anyway implementing them into the barrack on this way seems nice idea because could be there alternative strategy way when the player is out of leather but still has lance or bow and recruit or when the player decide to go for iron only strategy mostly with ironmeele then can train some ranged as rouge.

Personaly I've tried to described many times why Swordman+knights+bowman is the easiest and maybe the strongest strategy. Can say lots of depends from the map and from the situation. of course. But making mass Xbow+pike spam need larger economy which needs more invests into than SW+KN+BO. The whole XB+PI thing needs more gold more citizens, still coalfield depleting faster and sometimes the PT army is also a bit weaker and still harder to feed the whole economy, and playing without mounted is risky. harder to clean up the enemy group of bows. ...I'm sure Jeronimo could talk about this gameplay a lot. :mrgreen: (actually I've never beat him. ...yet. :wink: )

This kind of barrack could give a nice alternative where scout could be back with Xbows. The warrior hit larger but has less shield than swordman and their costs are the same, economicaly a bit different the iron making part(would need two weaponry+1rmory). Spamming knight is way harder when somebody is going for warrior. Spamming knights mean-> need a second ironarmory or reduce number of the xbows and /or of the warriors.
Maybe weird but Warrior with scout could be matchable with Sword+knights?!
The mass leather would be the same at each strategy.( SW+KN+BO game ; WA+SC+BO+Rouge).

Of course need lots of tests to experience this thing but as use to say more units more ways more fun and harder prediction who and what unit will train in a game. :wink:
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thunder

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Post 16 Jan 2017, 11:57

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Hey!
The script grew up for real beta testing. under the alpha test fixed many bugs and made it playable. Of course this script is based on many tricks! But it is a kind of research how the gameplay would really change if new kind of troops would be in the Multiplayer building games on FAIR way. (I tried to heck the siege units also-switched their images with the rebels, but it somehow not worked. Maybe would have to add them to .rxx file? )

Shortly About the NewMod script 3days history:
-1st version only Warrior,Rebel,Rouge,Vagabond was added. There were some unittraining case when the player not get the trained troops, or just part of a group. These bugs are fixed and added the right click group training. (Barb left out because no real iron image which was compareable with the ingame irontroops)

-2nd- som eplayers wished to Barb be there also. Romek's had an idea about a kind of mixed unit of leather and iron. I know the Barb and warrior has the same hit and defence point, but we had discussion and seems the 1st version not gave any reason to train of those troops, not really give good efective strategy. So I decided to leave warriror in the script as it was(1Ironarmor+2swords) and add the barbarian as a speciel LEaher-iron unit as Romek's idea was(1Leatherjacket+2swords). I tried it out and got around 38-40 on a harder location under 60min. Seems OP but they have low defence points and no quality shuters behind them because all leather and iron went for these barbs. Would need more games to see how the cost-effectiveness is on these troops. Not just theoreticaly. But it's a real "new kind of" troops.(mixed, maybe mke more expensive with woodenshield so would be harder to make mass spam.)

-3rd sado helped to me lot, mainly answering my questions and recommending lots of commands to this script, and he gave me his forgotten ancient Statistic script which is helping lot to see the real values in the barrack and help to see the real trained and killed units stat in the game. Personaly I checked these counters many times. I hope i was not blind. So the wishes after the first game are real, okay not on the right way as it is in the source code, but with dynamic scripts I don't know how could it be much better. Maybe saving out statistics into .csv etc...

-4th here is the latest version. Adjusting the script to another maps have to check the player numbers4-6-8 and the buildorder.
Iron&Gold RMtT5_NM2.3.zip


-5th personally think these troops are on this way much more better for implemeting than via goldchests. I know originally these came from TH, but i made the goldchest challange directly to see how much gold is abusable in 60mins PT on a really/extremly small location and 100 barbarians sound is more than that the multiplayerbalance could handle...

As always, have fun!
t

PS:
Big thanks for
sado to help in the script
Mr Fu to helped with his unit attack-defence table
and for the alpha script testers :wink:

PSPS: Once again, it is a research! Note! The script made by a real baker not by a great magical programmer->almost 440lines not only 25! :P
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Rey

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Post 16 Jan 2017, 12:58

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Well done!

Interesting how it will go on with all these new units. Hope we will see them not only in custom scripts but also in the game (optionally probably).

What about siege weapons - I do not believe they could work in r6720 - code, which is related to them, marked as comments, so for example there is no such unit type as ballista or catapult.

Also interesting to see extra stats here from sado's script. I have some longterm plans of adding extra stats page with lots of extra info in the form of stacked bars.
Smth like that, with extra list on the left with all the stats variantions (same as for wares on 4th page now):

Image

So we could add there lots of extra stats
1) Citizens died (hunger/enemies/friendly fire)
2) Soldiers died (hunger/enemies/friendly fire)
3) Soldiers died of enemies (melee/ranged/towers)
4) buildings demolished (not by enemies, but by player himself)
5+) all the stats from 1st stats page, but may be more detailed
6) Used wood (for buildings/wine fields/weapons)
7) used stone (...)
8+) all other wares which can be used in different ways
9) your ideas ?

Also stats will be possible to see during the game (for spectators only or while watching replay).
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thunder

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Post 16 Jan 2017, 13:53

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Well done!

:wink: Good teachers are around KaM and lots of copy paste. :mrgreen: :wink:

What about siege weapons - I do not believe they could work in r6720 - code, which is related to them, marked as comments, so for example there is no such unit type as ballista or catapult.

Hm, well it still would need more discussion, many topics are with this wish. And maybe it is other topic case. but shortly I think their cost and defence are imba, technicaly they are very slow and need meele defence next to them. Their cost's 5ironbar+5timber means 2xbows+2milities(+the reamained wares). Somebody would give larger building attack point to these units. These units would help to the defenders/campers way more than for the attackers. Traing them could be very profitabe where the towers are disabled ( for example loc7 & 8 on The Hatefuls map) or where the locations don't have too much entrances.
I think can implement them on the original way. Use lots of iron to create a defence less unit. At this moment I don't see too much reason to train them. would be nice to check the siege topics again.

9) your ideas ?

I don't use to care too much about the statistic. Of course i have stat screens from my games, but hard to compare the players effectivly by the killing stats. Some players use his mates as meat in middle of the fight while the other player just going for killing the easy target -bows. This is what i like in sado's script because he is trying to balance the kills by points. can kill 50 bows but will give only 20points while killing 10knight give more points than that 50bows... (there is an ancient stroy about a bow hunter who rather went to hunting bows with his horse than help to his mates. trolololo :mrgreen: )

-Anyway I would add a stat which describe who and what kind of and how many troops killed in the game. Shortly details of the kills. For example 97%of my stats are negative (trained units-killed units) doesn't matter win or loose the game. I have to use magnificent to search a game where i have more kills than trained units.
Paper army or the not hunted bows or just simply used meat by mates or just would have to learn fighting? //high ball//

-Sign in the building number graphs when a barrack, and school built up. Only a dot in the graph. The second and third school could be interesting if want to compare the strategies.

-serfs/labourers in time

-Anyway sado said something he still want to upgrade his script, so possible he still has ideas for speciel stats.
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sado1

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Post 16 Jan 2017, 23:06

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

My ideas for stats:
-export to csv, or maybe even a little program to simply batch generate csv statistics from multiple replays, like Krom or Lewin once suggested
-ingame stats screen should have more 'fair' stats. Some kind of "killpoints", where you get more points for killing a bunch of knights than simply killing a lot of bows.
-achievements/awards on the stats screen. Stuff like: most horses, most food, most towers, biggest PT army, ... Design: "[horse icon]most horses: sado" etc.
-to be continued. maybe I'll work on that script with some of my ideas.
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Rey

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Post 17 Jan 2017, 01:43

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

-export to csv, or maybe even a little program to simply batch generate csv statistics from multiple replays, like Krom or Lewin once suggested

Good Idea

ingame stats screen should have more 'fair' stats. Some kind of "killpoints", where you get more points for killing a bunch of knights than simply killing a lot of bows.

We had a similar Idea about trained units - smth like Army power in some points (so also militia is 1 point while knight f.e. 5). But honestly I am not sure these two values will be fair enought. Also we could add this to the 'Killed units' graph, which was mention by somebody in TS or during one of your stream, sado.

achievements/awards on the stats screen. Stuff like: most horses, most food, most towers, biggest PT army, ... Design: "[horse icon]most horses: sado" etc.

Not sure where it can be added. We already have wares produced chart - there you can see how many horses or food was produced.
Do we need to duplicate this info somewhere else - for instance on that new page with stacked bars, but then it will be too much of duplicate info - if you show who is the best in horses why do not you show who was the best in wood/corn/whatever - so we will need to add this for all the wares
Or just add 'archivement' for most wares produces on the wares page (may be shrink graph a bit and put award pict from 1st page near nicknames).

@Krom @Lewin what do you think ?
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Ben

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Post 17 Jan 2017, 02:45

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Trained unit value isn't needed-- to see more in-depth stats on units trained, look at the production graphs.
For stats on killed units...might be nice to just add a running score into the game. It wouldn't be hard to implement from a design standpoint. +1 point for every bread produced, +20 for every knight killed, +20 for every knight trained, -1 for every bread lost/consumed, -10 for every knight lost, (lost values are to reflect a worse position than before, but should not take all points away, as a previous advantage should hold some value) etc. etc. Of course, some testing and calculations would be needed to reflect accurate positions.

Wait, are we getting off topic?
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Rey

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Post 17 Jan 2017, 03:07

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Trained unit value isn't needed-- to see more in-depth stats on units trained, look at the production graphs.

Logic of adding this is the same as for killing points - some aggregate measurement include all the produced (killed) units. Do not see why we should add one and do not add another (or may do not add both).

might be nice to just add a running score into the game

What you called running score is even more aggregate value - count all what player have done in game. Similar to starcraft exp or same stuff in other games. Honestly I never liked this in starcraft and do not think its worth to know such values 'out of someone's head'. Just magic numbers. If got lots of points does not mean anything definite. May be you killed lots of units, or may you was good in making bread - you can lose or win in any case. Its just sum of way too many measurements.

And yes its absolutely offtopic here :D
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Ben

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Post 17 Jan 2017, 23:00

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Reread my post: You can discern the quality of one's army simply by looking at his production. You cannot come to any conclusion for kills based on what stats we currently have right now. Of course, more stats is always better so I couldn't really care less if you put both in.

As for score, it's just as useful as stats. If you disagree, it could be due to your dislike for Starcraft. Ahem, scores can be useful for rough measurements of performance, as well as comparing performances among different players on similar builds. It can be useful for different game modes/objectives, and can be stored in reference for individual player accolades.

I'll split the (off)topic soon EDIT: never mind I'll leave it be.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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Esthlos

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Post 17 Jan 2017, 23:44

Re: Dynamic Script idea for Town Hall units in a map

Since you're not going to explain it: the units are available as a second set of Wood units when the Repair button of the Barracks is enabled.

Which by the way is a very elegant way to implement this... good job! :D
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