Golden Cliffs + Bonuses!

[Ben]

Personally, I won't play this gamemode if explorers can see entire map from start. There are so many crazy strategies you can do with these bonuses and I don't want them spoiled. It's not so much that it is "op" more like it just ruins the fun.

Brainstorming other Explorer ideas:

• Your people are masters of exploration! Their seasoned scouting has given themselves and their structures x2 LoS. Because of the husbandry used for scouting, your people need only three corn to produce horses.

Having units and buildings have x2 isn't a huge bonus, although watchtowers will cover huge portions of the map! I don't know if changing the wares needed for horses is possible, but if it is I think that bonus would make this a worthy strategy

(I was going to make more ideas but I got nothing else other than exploration of entire map after pt )

Another thing: I think it is a bad idea to have "snipers." You're messing with some fundamental attacking mechanics. The most effective way to "push" on an opponents position is to "dance" with a knight. If someone has "snipers" than he will be the ultimate camper. I don't see this as a particularly interesting bonus anyway. It's like you just wanted to add another bonus that just doesn't stand up to the awesomeness of the other bonuses.

And one last thing!: I don't like that you made swine farms produce 2x skins for survivalist. True, their swine farms should have some kind of bonus for not producing food, but think about this: Swine farms are already way better for them since they don't need food in the first place! The player will never need to sacrifice his valuable corn for bread! Also, I don't think this suits the bonus that well anyway. Instead, maybe let swine farms remain like they are not, and just let players trade pigs for something or perhaps make pigs cost only 3 corn (if that's possible).

[Tiank]

There are so many crazy strategies you can do with these bonuses and I don't want them spoiled.

That's why I suggested to make player see the whole map after some time (like 10 minutes, or maybe even 10 minutes before PT, or at PT ends. However, I like the idea of letting explorers have to only use 3 corn for horses . Also, the idea with larger Line of Sight is nice as well.

I just played it to see how many Barbs you can have along with decent army. On 70 PT and 2x speed I had 12 Barbs, 25 Swords, 25 Bows and 12 xbows. On 60 PT it should be possible to make around 10 Barbs, 20 Swords and 20 Bows.

I have encountered a bug while storming with these Barbs, range check error (I've sent report to Lewin already).

GC Bonus.7z

One more thing, the replay is broken... don't know why, maybe it's because of the script somehow?

[Esthlos]

I was thinking about having messages sent to notify other players of your chosen bonus... what's your opinion? No way, allies only or everyone?

Personally, I won't play this gamemode if explorers can see entire map from start. There are so many crazy strategies you can do with these bonuses and I don't want them spoiled. It's not so much that it is "op" more like it just ruins the fun.
[...]

I suppose that one extra Horse could be snuck every 3 Horses produced, but I'm not really sure it would be worth it... at this point Explorers could be removed altogether, and replaced with, maybe, Iron skin?
(Iron skin would give your people a 33% chance to ignore the damage from an arrow or a bolt.)

Another thing: I think it is a bad idea to have "snipers." You're messing with some fundamental attacking mechanics. The most effective way to "push" on an opponents position is to "dance" with a knight. If someone has "snipers" than he will be the ultimate camper. I don't see this as a particularly interesting bonus anyway. It's like you just wanted to add another bonus that just doesn't stand up to the awesomeness of the other bonuses.

I see you are heavily underestimating the "auto repair" bonus from Explorers... now that is the ultimate camping tool.
(You need sustained fire from a group of Bowmen to actually bring down the health of an auto-repairing Tower, and even then it takes a long time)

Anyway, I think that you are overestimating the Snipers: they have the chance to kill on Wounding, not on Attack: this means that dancing Knights still have a low chance to be killed, and mostly just if the Sniper made Crossbowmen instead of Bowmen.

And, if Iron skin gets added, it would be a direct counter to Snipers.
Also, Demolishers should already be a nice counter to camping strategies, since they are able to quickly dispose of enemy towers.

And one last thing!: I don't like that you made swine farms produce 2x skins for survivalist. True, their swine farms should have some kind of bonus for not producing food, but think about this: Swine farms are already way better for them since they don't need food in the first place! The player will never need to sacrifice his valuable corn for bread! Also, I don't think this suits the bonus that well anyway. Instead, maybe let swine farms remain like they are not, and just let players trade pigs for something or perhaps make pigs cost only 3 corn (if that's possible).

Ok, I'll remove that bonus...

One more thing, the replay is broken... don't know why, maybe it's because of the script somehow?

No idea... maybe you'd better ask that too to Lewin.

[Tiank]

I was thinking about having messages sent to notify other players of your chosen bonus... what's your opinion? No way, allies only or everyone?

I was thinking about a notification on screen (sth like Your chosen bonus: Tough People), so that when you watch replay, you know who choose which bonus. I'm not sure about messages, it seems like an unnecessary message spam. If you want to know what others have, just ask .

at this point Explorers could be removed altogether

Why? I think we should give it a try. First let's test it with seeing the whole map and having extra horse production (3 corn for one horse), then, if it's not working, let's try Ben's solution - higher LoS (and of course that horse thing as well).

[Esthlos]

at this point Explorers could be removed altogether

Why? I think we should give it a try. First let's test it with seeing the whole map and having extra horse production (3 corn for one horse), then, if it's not working, let's try Ben's solution - higher LoS (and of course that horse thing as well).

Ok, then I'll wait before making more changes...

One moment, the extra horse should be in addition to what Explorers already have? To me that seems like a lot...

[sado1]

at this point Explorers could be removed altogether

Why? I think we should give it a try. First let's test it with seeing the whole map and having extra horse production (3 corn for one horse), then, if it's not working, let's try Ben's solution - higher LoS (and of course that horse thing as well).

Ok, then I'll wait before making more changes...

One moment, the extra horse should be in addition to what Explorers already have? To me that seems like a lot...

Nooooo, as a replacement. Seriously, seeing the entire map seems way imba. Ben's solution makes much more sense.

[Ben]

Another thing: I think it is a bad idea to have "snipers." You're messing with some fundamental attacking mechanics. The most effective way to "push" on an opponents position is to "dance" with a knight. If someone has "snipers" than he will be the ultimate camper. I don't see this as a particularly interesting bonus anyway. It's like you just wanted to add another bonus that just doesn't stand up to the awesomeness of the other bonuses.

I see you are heavily underestimating the "auto repair" bonus from Explorers... now that is the ultimate camping tool.
(You need sustained fire from a group of Bowmen to actually bring down the health of an auto-repairing Tower, and even then it takes a long time)

Anyway, I think that you are overestimating the Snipers: they have the chance to kill on Wounding, not on Attack: this means that dancing Knights still have a low chance to be killed, and mostly just if the Sniper made Crossbowmen instead of Bowmen.

I forgot about auto repair on explorers. Still, on Cursed Ravine this would be a pain since there is only one small entrance, but most games I play (9/10) no more than 5ish buildings are destroyed; counting towers of course. Most of the time, the towers are just stormed...

I will take your word on snipers and try it out sometime. I just feel like the knights will die more than twice as fast as they do now when dancing, which would be an especially large problem when dancing against xbows.

[dicsoupcan]

actually self repairing buildings are not a huge bonus as far as i am concerned. most of the time the enemy just marches into town and kills all citizens which outright shut you down. but i do agree that explorer might need some tweaking.

[Esthlos]

(Oh... then it seems that I assumed wrongly the importance of Towers for campers; my bad.)

I still think it was worth it to give a try to Explorers having the whole map explored... anyway:

• Explorers no longer see the whole map, but now breeding their horses costs 3 Corn each instead of 4
• Survivalists no longer get 2 Skins instead of 1 Pig + 1 Skin
• Allies get an overlay message stating what did you choose; works with AIs too, and seems to be showing in replays.

[Ben]

So who wants to test this? I am available anytime tomorrow

[Ben]

Explorers doesn't seem to have x2 LoS. Did you leave that out on purpose?

EDIT: There is some weird bug that seems to plague this map. If you return to lobby, the Remake will say that "Host files do not match outs. Host may be trying to cheat."

[Esthlos]

Explorers doesn't seem to have x2 LoS. Did you leave that out on purpose?

Forgot it, actually.
I also noticed that there is a chance that Engineers do not get their construction speed bonus (when two -or more- Laborers hit the construction site with their hammers at the same time, the bonus does not get applied).

EDIT: There is some weird bug that seems to plague this map. If you return to lobby, the Remake will say that "Host files do not match outs. Host may be trying to cheat."

Might be related to the replay breaking, as reported by Tiank... I'll try to see if it is something that I can fix or, if not, at least identify so that Lewin or Krom can fix it.

[Ben]

also noticed that there is a chance that Engineers do not get their construction speed bonus (when two -or more- Laborers hit the construction site with their hammers at the same time, the bonus does not get applied).

I thought I noticed this when playing today. That's quite a bummer. I think Engineering might be a little weak in comparison to the other bonuses because Egineering has no late game ability, but that's probably okay. It could be a rusher strategy I suppose.

[Esthlos]

It could be a rusher strategy I suppose.

It is.

In the attached file,

• Explorers actually have their x2 Line of Sight bonus on soldiers and Towers
• Engineers actually get their x2 construction speed bonus
• I still have absolutely no idea of what corrupted Tiank's replay and made the game think that the host was cheating when returning to lobby... Lewin, halp!

P.S. For future reference, the line of sight of the various buildings and units is equivalent to (only tested those, and didn't find this anywhere else):

  Code:

Any equipped soldier: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Any civilian: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 4) Sawmill: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Iron Smithy: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Weapon Smithy: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Coal Mine: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Iron Mine: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Gold Mine: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Fisherman's Hut: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Bakery: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Farm: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Woodcutter's: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Armor Smithy: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Storehouse: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 14) Stables: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Schoolhouse: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Quarry: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Metallurgist's: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Swine farm: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Watch Tower: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 18) Weapons Workshop: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Armory Workshop: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Barracks: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 14) Mill: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Vehicles Workshop: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 14) Butcher's: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Tannery: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 10) Inn: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 11) Vineyard: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Market: Actions.FogRevealCircle(player, X, Y, 9) Not tested: Town Hall.

[Lewin]

Please give me as much information as you can about the two errors: Replay breaking and "Host files do not match outs. Host may be trying to cheat.". This is caused by a rare bug in KaM Remake which I have been trying to fix for ages. I have never found a way to reproduce the reliably. Perhaps this script is doing something that makes the bug more likely, which is great because it can help me to fix it.

Do you need to play this map for a whole game to cause the bugs? (or does the replay break early?)
Does the replay still break if you play with only yourself and AIs? (no other humans including spectators)
Can you give me a set to steps which will cause the bug to happen most of the time?

Even if the bug only happens occasionally but if this map makes it more likely, I can create a debugging version of the Remake and get some of you to help me reproduce the bug while playing in the debugging version (which will be saving data to help me solve it).