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Ben

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 02:58

Re: New players

Look, Shogun, you're not going to convince anyone who already uses Teamspeak(TS). For example, I have played hundreds of games on TS. Nearly all are enjoyable, and the few that aren't are usually because I played with mostly non-English speakers...nearly rendering TS useless anyway.

Now it is true that the bulk of renown TS players can be "clicky." That is, they tend to be very closed off from others and seldom welcome new ones. I don't believe this is a bad thing, people like to keep to their own and that's okay. This is why I usually allow people to make private channels that they can bring their own "click" of people into. It is more or less a dream of mine that even randoms will use TS someday, with people inviting new people all the time into new rooms.
#thunderposting #greentornado
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thunder

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 08:08

Re: New players

Seems I lost...I'm sorry what is the real problem?
kicks from the lobby? low level players? unquality multiplayer games? The habits of the TS users?Password protection?

In my opinion every kind of players can find game and gamemode for playing.
The real problem maybe arguing for nothing.

Were you kicked by the host from a lobby or somebody insulted you becuse said 'kur..'? Grow up and kick them from your lobby... Thas all. Make your own list about players who you like to play. We can agree this list is not too long because maybe nearly 200active palyers playing this game. EZ to create this kind of list...In past somebody made statistics too about the players...so it is not impossible...
Make your own lobby and play what you want. Kick players from the lobby if you dont want to play with somebody...etc...
Try to be less nervous about noobs and rude players. ITs not good for the bodys health.

Anyway TeamSpeak is only an option to find players for matchmaking. And yes, GOD players of the game sitting there. There are the less leavers, laggers and the most organisated and balanced games are use to be there. Of course all TS users are rudes :mrgreen:

Personaly once per year I use to join to 'random' lobbies to see the difference and my result is always :' never do this again!!'...waste of time...Zero qualitys...leavers and farmers... But I use to do it to learn this again and again.

Simple, true?
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The Dark Lord

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 08:37

Re: New players

Shogun wrote:Sado, The Dark Lord and who else a supporter of TS... What do you say about "Ts players" replay that i have posted here https://vk.com/topic-7734603_36097679 ?
Some guys was lagging (by fps and by ping, omg), some of them was unstable, Stocky have left the game on 40 min (i think he ragequit after he built the bad city), teams was imbalanced (unfair then), to replace Stocky there came some guy who calls himself as Razor that was lagging also (i had doubts about he wasn't a troll). That is how we was playing.
And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker. About it you guys was talking, when you brought pluses of the closed lobbies and the TS groups?

I think, that Sado was right in one thing - you are group of friends, because rudeness holds you all together. I'll describe the situation. About random guy that proofing that he is Razor i had doubts that he wasn't a troll. I was unfortunately host there and wanted the proof that he wasn't a troll. I thought he would tell me about it himself in TeamSpeak, but did i hear from him? Something like kurwa. And from Bara i heard "co za debil". Yes, Bara, even debil can understand your words. That was proof from group of friends for me. And this case is not limited.

After this i think you should understand that such lobbies are not different from a random ones.

Of course it happens from time to time that games initiated through TS are unsuccessful (for a variety of reasons) - but as Thunder points out, with 'random' games, this is almost always the case. One example will not change our opinions, nor will two, or three, or ten.
About the bad behaviour - I fully agree. It is something that I have tried to fight against, but unfortunately I stood alone and had to watch how the community degraded into this. But I don't think there is a way back now without completely destroying what was built.
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Stocky

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 09:15

Re: New players

Shogun wrote:Sado, The Dark Lord and who else a supporter of TS... What do you say about "Ts players" replay that i have posted here https://vk.com/topic-7734603_36097679 ?
Some guys was lagging (by fps and by ping, omg), some of them was unstable, Stocky have left the game on 40 min (i think he ragequit after he built the bad city), teams was imbalanced (unfair then), to replace Stocky there came some guy who calls himself as Razor that was lagging also (i had doubts about he wasn't a troll). That is how we was playing.
And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker. About it you guys was talking, when you brought pluses of the closed lobbies and the TS groups?

I think, that Sado was right in one thing - you are group of friends, because rudeness holds you all together. I'll describe the situation. About random guy that proofing that he is Razor i had doubts that he wasn't a troll. I was unfortunately host there and wanted the proof that he wasn't a troll. I thought he would tell me about it himself in TeamSpeak, but did i hear from him? Something like kurwa. And from Bara i heard "co za debil". Yes, Bara, even debil can understand your words. That was proof from group of friends for me. And this case is not limited.

After this i think you should understand that such lobbies are not different from a random ones.


I can't help myself but I see only criticism and no ideas how to improve or do things different so what is your point Shogun ?

(Btw. yesterday game was unusually bad because of lags but this is almost never the case when we play and to my inability to join, I apologize but If you remember I had to go back to lobby shortly before i wasn't able to join back because of techical issues, leaving is not my style and besides one missing tile, my city was very much ok when I checked it today.)

and judging by one game is to say it nice quite inaccurate. Let's play 10 games and then you can get some clues how good or bad it really is. :)
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Shogun

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 11:28

Re: New players

Laufy wrote:
Shogun wrote:Sado, The Dark Lord and who else a supporter of TS... What do you say about "Ts players" replay that i have posted here https://vk.com/topic-7734603_36097679 ?
Some guys were lagging (by fps and by ping, omg), some of them were unstable, Stocky have left the game on 40 min (i think he ragequit after he built the bad city), teams were imbalanced (unfair then), to replace Stocky there came some guy who calls himself as Razor that was lagging also (i had doubts about he wasn't a troll). That is how we were playing.
And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker. About it you guys were talking, when you brought pluses of the closed lobbies and the TS groups?

I think, that Sado was right in one thing - you are group of friends, because rudeness holds you all together. I'll describe the situation. About random guy that proofing that he is Razor i had doubts that he wasn't a troll. I was unfortunately host there and wanted the proof that he wasn't a troll. I thought he would tell me about it himself in TeamSpeak, but did i hear from him? Something like kurwa. And from Bara i heard "co za debil". Yes, Bara, even debil can understand your words. That was proof from group of friends for me. And this case is not limited.

After this i think you should understand that such lobbies are not different from a random ones.


I can't help myself but I see only criticism and no ideas how to improve or do things different so what is your point Shogun ?

To play with randoms ofc (read words that i have wrote above). But i think, I because of the last game exaggerated much the problem, because much depends on people.

(Btw. yesterday game was unusually bad because of lags but this is almost never the case when we play and to my inability to join, I apologize but If you remember I had to go back to lobby shortly before i wasn't able to join back because of techical issues, leaving is not my style and besides one missing tile, my city was very much ok when I checked it today.)

If you can't keep your words then how we can argue?

and judging by one game is to say it nice quite inaccurate. Let's play 10 games and then you can get some clues how good or bad it really is. :)

There is nothing absolute. We are different from the random lobbies by the less coincidence of what can happen as yesterday.
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Stocky

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 15:49

Re: New players

Nobody's gonna start to play with randoms, people above tried to explain how risky it is compare to playing with the ones you know. I already said that yesterday's game was the exception and I encouraged you to play with us to see for yourself. If I remember correctly we played together few times before so you can kinda tell how our games are but you are welcome to play/spect anytime because I really want to convince you that ts games are pretty much the best what you can get right now. :wink:
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bgejavascript

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Joined: 29 Jul 2017, 22:24

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 22:41

Re: New players

I really like Shogun's point of view.
Me, as a new player: I can observe some of unnecessary obstacles:

1) I was also kicked by mr. fu without a reason with 2 or 3 free spaces. Why? I am not sure. Barateon (is he German?) did that as well: never know the reason.
Is it because these players have a big ego?
2) I also tried to join E* clan, but after win against Max Ger I noticed that this clan refused to play against me anymore. They never ever replied to my asks to play.
This is, as Shogun posted a reason of "defend themselves" and do not accept new players.
3) So, I think I am not interested in playing online due to harsh people. Even two, enough to feel just like "oh, I do not want to spend time with them so"

I am also missing some learning centre. Look at github repos: a lot of knowledge. I could help to develop such strategy center.

I did not read the whole story, but will do it a bit later.
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sado1

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Post 29 Jul 2017, 23:00

Re: New players

Bara was probably annoyed at the fact that you kept kicking Razor when he tried to replace one of the players. (although there's a possibility he meant that for Stocky) Let's call it a misunderstanding... we wasted a lot of time in that lobby, and if Razor would troll less, kicking him would probably not be necessary. Razor doesn't usually lag, he lives in Chile like I explained, so his ping will stay around 300, but it doesn't spike (it stays 300); there was another guy lagging (Progrus) who needed to restart the PC (which fixed his problems).
Shogun wrote:And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker.


Your team was Baratheon, Stocky (later Razor), Mandos and yourself. Unfortunately for you, only Razor and Bara use their microphones (I think Bara didn't yesterday), so it's just bad luck, I guess.



I could quote TDL's post here - I tried to fight this, but it's not easy, and people eventually find their way into this community anyway (which surprises me sometimes, to be honest). From what I experienced, stuff works in a similar life in real life - when you join a new group of people (at work for example) that have to interact with you (no matter your "skill" or if they like you or not), it works in a very similar way. You can either try to be friendly to everyone and wait until you get accepted, or you look for another group when the current one is unbearable for you. Like Ben said, the best outcome for this would be, if it was possible to have "random" new players create their own groups on TS, but due to very small number of people actually speaking on TS, all new guys that want to socialize and talk, will eventually join our sub-group anyway... we used to have a lot of Russian guys sticking to their own at one point, but they moved to Skype.

On the other hand though, it is impossible to open our lobbies (xbow isn't really a secret, you just need to ask one of guys in any random lobby that plays this game for some time), but if we keep them closed, we won't be able to let new players play anything different from the most popular settings, unless they somehow start actively seeking us on their own. I used to join/make public open lobbies with settings like PT 60, x2 speed, then after the game (usually there were a lot of worse players there, so it wasn't really hard to be much better than them, even with my limited skills) I'd tell them to join us on TS if they want to get some gameplay advice. It worked pretty well, but I did that rarely given my limited time, and I wish others would do that too.
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Shogun

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 07:20

Re: New players

thunder wrote:Seems I lost...I'm sorry what is the real problem?

As i said the problem is in closed lobbies... do you read by parts? But it seems like nothing will be changed without new release. I had to stop myself in post for date 27 Jul 2017, 20:38. Because, most likely, this example (Ts players) of the terrible organization of games through the TeamSpeak was rather a kind of provocation from me. And
Shogun wrote:To play with randoms ofc
is not actual with this release ofc.

The Dark Lord wrote:Of course it happens from time to time that games initiated through TS are unsuccessful (for a variety of reasons) - but as Thunder points out, with 'random' games, this is almost always the case. One example will not change our opinions, nor will two, or three, or ten.

I was mostly talking about how closed lobbies are similar to random, not about level of individual players.

Grow up and kick them from your lobby...

You offer lawlessness, and talking like conservative :mrgreen:. May be the entire system of locked lobbies needs some rules? Because unwritten rules (i didn't found any) are not respected and can be interpreted in different ways.

Ben wrote:Now it is true that the bulk of renown TS players can be "clicky."

And then (after introduction of the rules) no authority will be "Сlicky" before the rules working for everyone. If those in turn do not agree, they will play in the rooms by invitation.
Yes, games through closed lobbies are good, but when it comes to the TeemSpack lobby, the games become somehow unpredictable, because most often the server, the recruitment of players into teams are chosen according to personal preferences. I had little initiative in this regard, because I was afraid to cause anger like I had two days ago (Although from the outside it could not seem like it i have discribe).

Shogun wrote:And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker.

sado1 wrote:As for TeamSpeak group isolation. I think it is both unfortunate and to be expected, at the same time. We're a group of friends that simply wants to play together, and on top of that, it is really bad to play with someone that neither doesn't know how to fight, nor is on TeamSpeak. It's not even about the army spam most of the time - communication in fight is very important. You don't have to speak if you don't want to, but at least be there and listen. We can't teach someone how to fight if all we can do is beaconing and typing in chat. KaM fights are way too fast-paced in the critical moments (when being caught or shot at, for example). There's nothing worse than seeing how your newbie teammate makes a stupid decision, that you can spot ahead of time, and you are unable to tell him to save his army, so you just stand there and watch him die... that's why when I am host, I usually resort to kicking out non-TS people first when I have to make a spot for someone from there.

By these words, i might think that here for you it is more important to have live conversation in the game itself. By this you state the reason why you would kick people for no reason. I thought that in the "p******-passworded lobby" everything is working like it and that it's not enough to just be a participant in the TS.
But everything breaks by unpredictable decisions like it was in game "Ts players".
From what I experienced, stuff works in a similar life in real life - when you join a new group of people (at work for example) that have to interact with you (no matter your "skill" or if they like you or not), it works in a very similar way.

I hate much this comparison. Every person from this ( from people's sensations, but not a meritscan of newcomers) become an outcast, or outside.
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Shogun

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 07:49

Re: New players

Summarizing the report above, I would say that we need to enter rules for all closed lobbies
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Da Revolution

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Knight

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 08:58

Re: New players

Shogun wrote:Summarizing the report above, I would say that we need to enter rules for all closed lobbies


Good luck.
"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path" - Buddha
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thunder

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 11:12

Re: New players

As i said the problem is in closed lobbies...

There is no problem with this. There are many reasons why a lobby can be password protected. (no laggers/no unkown players/only firends/wants test new maps or scripts etc...) So I don't see any problem with the protected lobbies. Password is for lock out the unwished guests/players.
Mostly has to be invited to join these lobbies. Dont have to arguing if somebdy kicks players (who were not invited) withouth reason or words.
The passwords are use to be known or rarely change. Still I use to ask after it...This is why TS or a communication platform can be useful.
The community is maybe devided or separated but the reason is not the password protected lobbies.
I see larger problems in this game than this small I was kicked from a lobby by a popular player becuase somebody not want to play with me.
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thunder

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 11:24

Re: New players

Sado, The Dark Lord and who else a supporter of TS... What do you say about "Ts players" replay that i have posted here https://vk.com/topic-7734603_36097679 ?
Some guys was lagging (by fps and by ping, omg), some of them was unstable, Stocky have left the game on 40 min (i think he ragequit after he built the bad city), teams was imbalanced (unfair then), to replace Stocky there came some guy who calls himself as Razor that was lagging also (i had doubts about he wasn't a troll). That is how we was playing.
And the most interesting - there was no suggestion to use the TS instead of the B marker. About it you guys was talking, when you brought pluses of the closed lobbies and the TS groups?

I think, that Sado was right in one thing - you are group of friends, because rudeness holds you all together. I'll describe the situation. About random guy that proofing that he is Razor i had doubts that he wasn't a troll. I was unfortunately host there and wanted the proof that he wasn't a troll. I thought he would tell me about it himself in TeamSpeak, but did i hear from him? Something like kurwa. And from Bara i heard "co za debil". Yes, Bara, even debil can understand your words. That was proof from group of friends for me. And this case is not limited.

After this i think you should understand that such lobbies are not different from a random ones.



Well, again. these are strange things.
If you think you heard something what should not then look after a moderator or administrator and let ask him to act. There are several opions to moderted or ban somebody from TS too. Here is the link for the details. Anyway the Ultimate power is in Ben's hand.
http://kamts.eu/

About the games. I use to spectate normal games and maybe once from 10 games use to see kind of problems- have to leave, DC issues, trolls or anything else. Everybody can have bad day. I use to have too once per year when looks Im trolling, but doing on fair way :P . But still these organised games have more constant performance and quality then those 'random' lobbies. And sorry for calling 'random' but in a point of view seems random. Rather would say unknown. :?
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sado1

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Post 30 Jul 2017, 15:11

Re: New players

Shogun wrote:Summarizing the report above, I would say that we need to enter rules for all closed lobbies

Umm... what you want to do, is to make a set of rules that every host should follow, when the game doesn't have (and is not likely to ever have) player registration system, so the game allows the host to do whatever he pleases. Apart from the fact that I think this would be a terrible idea to not let people make truly closed lobbies for loads of reasons (playing with friends, playing tournaments if we ever make any again, avoiding trolls is easier this way too... that's off the top of my head), how exactly do you want to enforce it?

Shogun wrote:
sado1 wrote:As for TeamSpeak group isolation. I think it is both unfortunate and to be expected, at the same time. We're a group of friends that simply wants to play together, and on top of that, it is really bad to play with someone that neither doesn't know how to fight, nor is on TeamSpeak. It's not even about the army spam most of the time - communication in fight is very important. You don't have to speak if you don't want to, but at least be there and listen. We can't teach someone how to fight if all we can do is beaconing and typing in chat. KaM fights are way too fast-paced in the critical moments (when being caught or shot at, for example). There's nothing worse than seeing how your newbie teammate makes a stupid decision, that you can spot ahead of time, and you are unable to tell him to save his army, so you just stand there and watch him die... that's why when I am host, I usually resort to kicking out non-TS people first when I have to make a spot for someone from there.

By these words, i might think that here for you it is more important to have live conversation in the game itself. By this you state the reason why you would kick people for no reason. I thought that in the "p******-passworded lobby" everything is working like it and that it's not enough to just be a participant in the TS.
But everything breaks by unpredictable decisions like it was in game "Ts players".


It's obviously important to have a live conversation because it's fun (see below for more on this), but I meant more from the perspective of having a game that is fun and successful. To have most chance for a successful game, ideally you need a set of 8 players that will not screw up their base or fights completely, that's why usually people try to have as many known and stable players as possible. People try to have a successful game because the alternative is wasting 60 minutes to build a base, then fighting for 5 minutes and that's it. (That's why we usually play the fighting part multiple times, reloading from save, but when someone completely screws up, it will still be very short and one-sided)

On the live conversation matter, I did not mean that we need as many speakers as possible because it's fun. When I want to speak with someone, he doesn't need to be an active player in my game. As I said, we like new people, but if they don't want to learn, then it's too hard to play with them. To learn how to fight, you need to join and listen, it's the easy way. It's simple to explain what you need to do with voice communication (like in most game genres, where tactics are important), and hard to learn this all without external help. Beacons can help in simple situations, but i.e. coordinating attacks with someone who doesn't know how to attack (so he storm attacks, or doesn't use bows, etc.) is near impossible.

Shogun wrote:
sado1 wrote: From what I experienced, stuff works in a similar life in real life - when you join a new group of people (at work for example) that have to interact with you (no matter your "skill" or if they like you or not), it works in a very similar way.

I hate much this comparison. Every person from this ( from people's sensations, but not a meritscan of newcomers) become an outcast, or outside.

I'm trying to show you how it works. I didn't say I like it, people are people, that's just my observation of how people do.
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